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Philip Dyer
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 Posted: Thu 08 Jan, 2015 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Joshua Waters wrote: | | Philip Dyer wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Joshua Waters wrote: | Here are some pictures of my early 12th Century Norman kit. I still have some things I need to fix on it, like tailoring the Maille to fit better. Any advice on improvements I could make would be great!
Note: I do know the presence of a Gambeson in the period I am portraying is questionable. |
Looks good to me, but I'm not qualified to critique period authenticity except as in a very general way: In other words I would be clueless about the minute details of period costume and decoration, type of belt or period specific shoes etc .....
As to tailoring maille, I've never done any myself but at a glance the fit on the arms doesn't seem to be too floppy or loose, at most the forearm part might taper just a little towards the wrist.
( Note: The maille sleeves on your sister's arms do seem to widen towards the wrist much more than with your maille sleeves, and her sleeves might benefit from being tailored as they widen considerably near the wrist ).
The main thing I would change, and this even from only a functional point of view, is that the slit in front of the mail shouldn't hang in a wide " V " gap almost inviting a lower belly stab ! The slit should look like a line where the edges of the maille meet in a vertical line even when the legs are a shoulder width apart, it would gap with a very wide stance or in a lunge or if running..
The slit is obviously needed for riding a horse.   |
From what I've seen at looking at bits of bayeux tapestry, both of these people's sleeves need to be shorter, the guy's sleeves much more so just behind the elbow. http://www.wga.hu/art/zzdeco/2tapestr/2bayeux/05bayeux.jpg The girl's sleeves get to be bit tighter but at least from examining this piece of the tapestry. http://www.wga.hu/art/zzdeco/2tapestr/2bayeux/05bayeux.jpg sleeves weren't nearly as well tailored yet like we see in full length and fully length sleeves with integrated mittens in later periods. I'm looking as a tapestry piece and the neck area confuses me, I don't know if the square thing is supossed to be a mail curtain hanging off the helmet and a double layer over the chest or a coif and unattached ventail. |
Jean, Thanks! You are correct as my needing to tailor the riding split on my maille so it does not leave such a gap. I just need to get some extra time and the rings to do so! 
Philip, from what I have seen after examining manuscript illustrations from that period I don't believe that all maille sleeves were that short, though I could be wrong as I don't know how accurate Manuscript miniatures dating is.
Here as the of the illustrations I am referencing:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3926/10772/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4361/9948/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4762/7798/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3995/11385/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4449/11129/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4471/11150/
The other reason the sleeves are so long is versatility, so when I decide to assemble a 13th century kit I don't have to buy another Hauberk. |
Good point and I would look to ee more research and opinion on the sleeves, I'm building 13th century kit for the SCA, so chainmail mittens are out, if you and/or I could find more examples to long sleves haubreks without intergated chaingloves, it could make both of our lives easier.
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Joshua Waters
Location: South Carolina Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2015 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Philip, Which part of the 13th century are you trying to depict with your kit, early, mid, late? I do actually know a some depictions of maille from that period with out the maille mittens. Knowing which part of the century would be a great help so I don't flood you with needless links.
And if you would like me to send you some links, would you prefer I PM them to you?
Benedictus Dominus Deus meus.
Qui docet manus meas ad prælium, et digitos meos ad bellum.
Deus vult!
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Joshua,
That is a great start for a living history persona for sure! Tailoring mail is interesting and can be a pain. Been working on mail chausses for a year now.... someday I might have time to get back to it. I tailored a hauberk into a haubergeon but only had a short period to do it and I will have to redo it sometime in the future as it did not turn out as well as I had hoped it would.
I think the sleeve length and lower edge is starting to increase during this period and throughout the 12th this will become more and more common. There are a number of images showing the shorter length for the torso and sleeves which could tie into social class or something. It has been years since I looked in great detail but that was the impression I got. Some of the gents who had trappings of higher class knights and such having more of themselves covered. So something to perhaps look into depending how deep into this you want to get. By the end especially it is becoming the norm for knights.
Neat your sister is interested in reenactment as well. I had all my siblings involved at one point or another which was a blast.
A few still would if I did more and was closer but such is life.
RPM
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Isak Krogh
Location: Sweden Joined: 07 Feb 2012
Posts: 20
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Joshua Waters
Location: South Carolina Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat 10 Jan, 2015 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Randall!
Yes, tailoring maille is certainly a pain, I have done it a few times and am not really looking forward to doing it again. I personally find it more easy to assemble and tailor maille from scratch, and I find it more easy to add gussets and tapering and general fiiting that way, it just takes forever.
I agree that maille during the 12th century sleeve and edge lengths increase, usually the sleeves went to the wrist, and the lower edge to just below the knee, but towards the end of the century the sleeves extended into mittens and the lower edge receded to just above the knee, and that remained common until the end of the 13th century.
It sure is great fun to have my siblings participate in this type of stuff too, and it is a lot for fun to spar with them also!
And thank you Isak, I often forget the belt line is a good bit lower now than it was back then, I need to keep that in mind next time I put on my kit.
As for my scabbard, I don't feel that is quite right either, it should be on a belt and not a balderic, I am planning on making a second scabbard for the sword with a proper suspension for the 12th century, but it is pretty hard to find any examples of how scabbards were suspended in the 12th century.
Benedictus Dominus Deus meus.
Qui docet manus meas ad prælium, et digitos meos ad bellum.
Deus vult!
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Baard H
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| Posted: Sun 11 Jan, 2015 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Hey Joshua, you might find these threads useful for scabbard references:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30408
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30414
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30428
And nice kit!
At kveldi skal dag leyfa,
konu, er brennd er,
mæki, er reyndr er,
mey, er gefin er,
ís, er yfir kemr,
öl, er drukkit er.
-Hávamál, vísa 81
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Vadim Senicheff
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| Posted: Wed 14 Jan, 2015 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Mark T wrote: | | Vadim Senicheff wrote: | | Really happy about new tassets ans rondels. |
Hi Vadim,
Great kit!
Who made your armour - especially the rondells? |
It's all fully made by my friend Illia Molotkov in Tula.
Here's some other his works. He's one of the best armourers in Russia, in my opinion. Allways does as close as possible to a museum originas.
https://www.facebook.com/Heldar1989
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Mark T
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| Posted: Wed 14 Jan, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Vadim!
That is nice work. Do you know where we can see more of Illia's creations?
Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Marcus Newton
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 1:09 am Post subject: |
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Hello all,
This might not be the correct post to ask this, but, I'm trying to make a kit for a medieval Irish fighter. And, I am not really sure how to begin. Any help I could get would be greatly appreciated.
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Henrik Granlid
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Do some googling on Galloglaigh and Galloglass and Gallowglass, these were Scottish mercenaries eventually awarded irish land and became a sort of semi noble warrior caste/class in Ireland.
Otherwise, see if there is anything Martial in Ireland over at www.effigiesandbrasses.com, a great resource for looking at armour of the time.
Non-central islands in Europe seem to have a late fashion rather than "modern" armour and stylings, you'll probably see a lot more chain and aketon defenses than you see in England during the mid to late 1300's, although I'm not sure.
There might be specific irish soldier fashions, like the baggy pants worn by early 16th century peasant soldiers in Sweden. You might find there's a typical irish helmet for a certain century, or a preffered weapon or colour. Galloglass, for instance, wore very special tunics, helmets and even a uniquely shaped maille collar. Along with a hauberk.
EDIT:
Here's a good thread
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=112409
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Marcus Newton
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Henrik,
Thanks for this info, I'll do that.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Joshua Waters wrote: | | Any advice on improvements I could make would be great! |
Josh,
Eventually, you'll want to find another sword if you want a high degree of historical accuracy for your kit. The hilt and pommel are very classic 13th or 14th century in style, which makes them out of place for a 12th century sword. I would probably look for a Type X, Xa, or XI sword. You could get it with a Brazil nut pommel, but you'd want to make sure the style and shape of the hilt furnishings are appropriate to the 12th century, since Brazil nuts are often found on swords from earlier centuries. Alternatively, getting a Type G flat disk-shape pommel would be a safe bet.
An Albion Senlac would be a good choice.
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Joshua Waters
Location: South Carolina Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | Joshua Waters wrote: | | Any advice on improvements I could make would be great! |
Josh,
Eventually, you'll want to find another sword if you want a high degree of historical accuracy for your kit. The hilt and pommel are very classic 13th or 14th century in style, which makes them out of place for a 12th century sword. I would probably look for a Type X, Xa, or XI sword. You could get it with a Brazil nut pommel, but you'd want to make sure the style and shape of the hilt furnishings are appropriate to the 12th century, since Brazil nuts are often found on swords from earlier centuries. Alternatively, getting a Type G flat disk-shape pommel would be a safe bet.
An Albion Senlac would be a good choice. |
Craig, thank you for the advice.
I do intend to get a good Brazil nut type X for my collection in the future, but I don't really care for Albions.
The sword I am carrying in the pictures is a type X, but I don't see how it is inaccurate because it has a type I pommel. I have seen a few type X's with the type I pommel dated to the 12th century (one of which is on this forums Oakeshott article, listed under the historic examples as X.6, and potentially Xa.1), and a few manuscripts from the time also show pommels that look to be the type I. I think the type I pommel would have been uncommon, but I don't think it would have been unknown.
I am sorry if I sound rude, that is not my intention. I am just curious as to why you say that.
Thank you Baard, those images are quite helpful and have given me a few ideas on how to go about making the scabbard.
Benedictus Dominus Deus meus.
Qui docet manus meas ad prælium, et digitos meos ad bellum.
Deus vult!
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Mike O'Hara
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 5:34 pm Post subject: Medieval Irish |
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Hi Marcus
Good choice - I have a galloglass kit. Here are a few references I used
Claiomh - some really good stuff on their site.
There was a magazine called Slua - you can probably still find it via Google but if not, PM me as I have some pdfs.
Galloglass 1250 - 1600 by Fergus Cannan.
Galloglas by John Marsden.
The world of the Galloglass Sean Duffy editor.
Irish Battles a Military History of Ireland by GA Hayes-McCoy
The more historically minded/trained members of myArmoury can give you some good critique on the accuracy of the information these books contain.
The Journal of the Military History Society of Ireland - last published in the 1970s but has some interesting items including Peter Harbison's Native Irish Arms and Armour.
Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy 1986 has dome good stuff on Irish swords.
And on myArmoury
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29480
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26416
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5844 with a big nod to Sean Flynt
hope this helps
regards
mike
MIke O'Hara
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
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Marcus Newton
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Mike,
Thanks for the info, looking it up now and trying to find those books you mentioned.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Joshua Waters wrote: |
Craig, thank you for the advice.
I do intend to get a good Brazil nut type X for my collection in the future, but I don't really care for Albions.
The sword I am carrying in the pictures is a type X, but I don't see how it is inaccurate because it has a type I pommel. I have seen a few type X's with the type I pommel dated to the 12th century (one of which is on this forums Oakeshott article, listed under the historic examples as X.6, and potentially Xa.1), and a few manuscripts from the time also show pommels that look to be the type I. I think the type I pommel would have been uncommon, but I don't think it would have been unknown.
I am sorry if I sound rude, that is not my intention. I am just curious as to why you say that.
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The trouble with Oakeshott is that he has a tendency to try to date a sword as early as possible. Thus, he sometimes pushes for early dates on the basis of one or two features when the rest of a sword strongly suggests a later date.
In the case of X.6 from the article, nothing about the blade, nor pommel nor cross suggests 12th century. All the major elements on the sword suggest a 13th or 14th century date. Likewise, Xa.1 from the article has a hollow ground cross section, something pretty much unheard of on 12th century swords. And again, the hilt and cross argue for a 13th or 14th century date, not 12th. In regards to these two swords, I doubt there are many experts who would agree with Oakeshott's early dates.
Keep in mind that the combination of the cross and pommel together often yield hints about the date. A style 2 cross, together with a wheel pommel is classic 13th or 14th century. It looks out of place for the 12th century.
Pity you don't like Albions; the Senlac is a superb sword.
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Joshua Waters
Location: South Carolina Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Mon 19 Jan, 2015 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | The trouble with Oakeshott is that he has a tendency to try to date a sword as early as possible. Thus, he sometimes pushes for early dates on the basis of one or two features when the rest of a sword strongly suggests a later date.
In the case of X.6 from the article, nothing about the blade, nor pommel nor cross suggests 12th century. All the major elements on the sword suggest a 13th or 14th century date. Likewise, Xa.1 from the article has a hollow ground cross section, something pretty much unheard of on 12th century swords. And again, the hilt and cross argue for a 13th or 14th century date, not 12th. In regards to these two swords, I doubt there are many experts who would agree with Oakeshott's early dates.
Keep in mind that the combination of the cross and pommel together often yield hints about the date. A style 2 cross, together with a wheel pommel is classic 13th or 14th century. It looks out of place for the 12th century.
Pity you don't like Albions; the Senlac is a superb sword. |
Thank you Craig, that makes a lot of sense. I guess I'll have to get off my butt and finish customizing my Tinker Norman and use that instead!
Benedictus Dominus Deus meus.
Qui docet manus meas ad prælium, et digitos meos ad bellum.
Deus vult!
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Mon 19 Jan, 2015 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Joshua Waters wrote: | | Craig Peters wrote: | The trouble with Oakeshott is that he has a tendency to try to date a sword as early as possible. Thus, he sometimes pushes for early dates on the basis of one or two features when the rest of a sword strongly suggests a later date.
In the case of X.6 from the article, nothing about the blade, nor pommel nor cross suggests 12th century. All the major elements on the sword suggest a 13th or 14th century date. Likewise, Xa.1 from the article has a hollow ground cross section, something pretty much unheard of on 12th century swords. And again, the hilt and cross argue for a 13th or 14th century date, not 12th. In regards to these two swords, I doubt there are many experts who would agree with Oakeshott's early dates.
Keep in mind that the combination of the cross and pommel together often yield hints about the date. A style 2 cross, together with a wheel pommel is classic 13th or 14th century. It looks out of place for the 12th century.
Pity you don't like Albions; the Senlac is a superb sword. |
Thank you Craig, that makes a lot of sense. I guess I'll have to get off my butt and finish customizing my Tinker Norman and use that instead! |
What is the sword in the pictures? I like it, it looks like an old blade, 10th or 11th century rehilted in 13th century.
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Joshua Waters
Location: South Carolina Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Tue 20 Jan, 2015 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | What is the sword in the pictures? I like it, it looks like an old blade, 10th or 11th century rehilted in 13th century. |
Hey Luka, my sword is a custom Del Tin from Crusader monk. Here is the link to the original post: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=31059
It is a wonderful sword! It feels great in hand, it's well balanced, handles wonderfully and doesn't feel too heavy. It is definitely my favorite sword in my collection. I agree it looks like an older blade that has been rehilted, it has an heirloom feeling to it. The blade has an 11th century feel, and now that Craig Peters has corrected me on the subject, the hilt does have a nice 13th century feel to it. It certainly would be an imposing weapon in battle. I named it Manus de bellum(Hand of war), it seemed fitting.
Benedictus Dominus Deus meus.
Qui docet manus meas ad prælium, et digitos meos ad bellum.
Deus vult!
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Tue 20 Jan, 2015 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Nice! I remember that sword but I didn't know Jonathan managed to sell it...
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