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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Sallet Scarves         Reply with quote

Does anybody know the appropriate material, color, width and length for a typical scarf as worn on sallets in the late 15th century Europe. These were often worn with feathers as well. Any thoughts about what would be appropriate for that? I see long, pointed feathers worn in Mars and Venus.

Thanks for the help!

I'll post some examples as I dig them out of my Big Box of 15th C. German Artwork.



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I should clarify that I'm interested in the simple scarf rather than the more elaborate "turban" of twisted and padded fabric.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Mick Czerep




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Sep, 2008 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean!
I'd suggest wool or silk as linen is hard to dye and bleaches quickly. For the plume ostrich feathers, also worn in hats of the nobles and the fashion-conscious.

Sordes ocurrit
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Sep, 2008 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Mick! I do see many white scarves, so I wonder if those were plain linen.

Is there any practical benefit of scarves and turbans?Was it a field sign? Personal memento of a wife or patron? Badge of rank? I've wondered if, like polearm tassles, they're meant to be both decorative and practical, shunting rainwater away from the brow. There seems to be a certain amount of inconvenience in wearing them, especially with a visored sallet, as they would appear to interfere with the movement of the visor. Maybe not, or maybe that was part of the benefit. I see this fashion worn with kettle helmets as well.

Do y'all think this item should always be a finished garment, like a modern scarf, or could it simply be an unfinished strip of cloth? I assume there would be differences in finish and material depending on the status of the individual.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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James Barker




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Sep, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First I would look for a non religious painting as a source; religious paintings often have weird unreal stuff to represent Arabs, Jews, and Romans. I am almost sure the Swiss chronicles show a sallet with a turban; if you have the Osprey book on the Swiss 1300 - 1500 I think one of the wood cuts is in there.


On turbans; my wife wears turbans for reenacting quite often. Her turbans are white linen as they are head coverings; the sizes vary. She uses long thin rectangles and fat squares and both do the job. In this case I would use a long thin rectangle.

Silk is strong possibility; wool too I guess though I would not wear a wool one on my head as it would be too hot.

James Barker
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Sep, 2008 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the insight, James!

I may see what I can come up with using some white muslin I have on hand.

By the way, the Medieval Housebook has the best images of sallet scarves, and I haven't been able to spot any pattern of wear in terms of class, color, style, etc. sometimes they're knotted at the back, with trailing ends. Sometimes they appear to be knotted on the right side. Sometimes the loose ends are tucked between scarf and steel to form decorative loops resembling waves. Sometimes there are feathers, sometimes not. Feathers are long or short, single or grouped, front or right side.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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D. Austin




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Sep, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Is there any practical benefit of scarves and turbans?Was it a field sign? Personal memento of a wife or patron? Badge of rank?


I read in "British Battles" by Ken and Denise Guest, that "some units knotted a coloured scarf around their helmets as a battlefield insignia."

I don't know where they got this information from but it seems to me to be the most plausible explanation.
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Andreas Auer




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep, 2008 4:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

to the practical side of scarfs...the visor stays up this way.
The secret is,
to keep that pointy end thingy away from you...
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep, 2008 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean, it's one plausible (not to mention cheap and extremely fast to produce and distribute) livery or unit designation. Other possibles would be livery jackets or hoods.

For a city militia, it'd be a lot of "civilian" clothes, a jack and sallet, perhaps... possibly maille or even a brig... not much of a "uniform" uniform.

It'd be like a US Civil War unit showing up with the clothes on their back and their personal rifle... and issued a hat. Another example might be a gang - everyone in their street clothes, but a bandanna to symbolize affiliation (though I will full-well expect that there will be more discipline and lawfulness amongst my troops).

In the Medieval Housebook, you see lots of red/white/blue and green/white. Augsburg is green and white... Nuremberg is red and white. I'm building my group based on 1470-80 Nuremberg, with strict guidelines on TYPE/STYLE of clothing and such, but open as to colors. We'll probably use hoods and these scarves parti-colored red/white to pull the unit together - the men's will be pretty plain; mine, as Hauptmann, with black and gold strands as well, with a gilt broach and some peacock or pheasant feathers at the side of my sallet. I full-well expect that there will be some variation in how they're tied or secured.

Another good source book for modern interpretation is The Medieval Soldier by Gerry Embleton & John Howe.

Hope you're finding the Hausbuch interesting!
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aaron: Do you already know what material you'll be using for your group's scarves? I'm thinking of using some white muslin sewn into a long tube.

First, though, I'm going to see about having my 1460-ish sallet cut down to 1500-ish form. If I can afford to have that done I'll do it, re-blue and try my hand at a plume holder and applied brass edging.

And, yes, the Hausbook is a wonderful source. Thanks for that tip! I wish Embleton and Howe would add a third book to their first two. Can't get enough of that stuff, but awhile back I found a huge cache of Olofsgillet images (not at their site....don't recall where I found 'em) and that material has proven to be at least as inspiring and useful as the books. I lucked into an affordable copy of The Medieval Armour from Rhodes last year and that has proven to be a great investment as well.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Mark T




PostPosted: Fri 13 Apr, 2012 11:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just wanted to bump this topic to see if we've had any advances in reserach or thinking on this in the last few years?

I don't have my copy of the Hausbuch on hand, but in this online image, we can see a couple of scarfs that are dyed red, white, and blue to match the colours on other livery items; there's also an image of what appears to be a scarf tied over a visored sallet, which is interesting ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...rennen.jpg



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Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess it's just one of those nice little touches.
For what it's worth, I'd agree with most of the ideas presented thus far. If you're in a tournament, then displaying a favour by putting it on your helmet sounds legit, with the added benefit of keeping a visor shut if needs be. Livery is another excellent Idea. And why not, if you get rather cold use it as a scarf? Or more padding, even a makeshift bandage?
It's not like it takes up much room, so I'd say go for it. Maybe make two, one super styling (velvet, trim etc.), and one more utilitarian (livery).

A Knyght ther was, and that a worthy man,/ That fro the tyme that he first bigan/ To riden out, he loved chivalrie,/ Trouthe and honour, fredom and curteisie./ ... He was a verray parfit gentil knyght./ But for to tellen yow of his array,/ His hors weren goode, but he was nat gay./ Of fustian he wered a gypoun,/ Al bismotered with his habergeoun;/ For he was late ycome from his viage,/ And wente for to doon his pilgrymage.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Apr, 2012 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I tried this. The problem with a visored sallet of this type is that the scarf can easily slide down and block the sight. I'm not sure how they prevented that in the period, but I do accept that the housebook is showing us the fashion of the day.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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