Thank you for your replies friends. Is very serious.

M. Eversberg II wrote:

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You know, I've witnessed some soldiers in the infantry schools of the Marine Corps practicing with real bayonets, and was wondering if any WMA/EMA people had done the same...personally, I failed to see the value of the exercise, as you could not practice full speed...well, I see some value, but not much.

Firstly, how long ago was that? because, in my profession as a US Navy sailor, I have met US Navy SEALS that won't spar with live steel, their training guns are airsoft / paintball, or in extreme cases wood (disarming techniques) and the few marines I have met only ever used any sort of a sharp blade was to learn 2 cuts, (from left hip to right shoulder, and back down the same way.) most of marine training consists of unarmed martial arts ie boxing, and marksmanship. so far as I know they NEVER used any sort of live steel on each other.
I think they practiced bayonet techniques on dummies during Vietnam, but I may be mistaken.

-Scott

I've seen several posters here with cautionary tales about test-cutting with sharps (against inert targets), and given their accounts, my opinion on sparring with live steel is "Heck no." Sparring with practice weapons can cause enough damage as it is.

Bartek Strojek wrote:

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Also , it seems that he cut himself in the back of the leg. With missed cut one would expect cutting oneself to the front?

not necessarily, if you are cutting low, and miss, or the blade bounces off, and your leg is forward far enough, with your foot turned out just enough, you will slice up the back of your leg. I have seen it quite a few times with boy scouts that don't pay attention to the safety breifs on how to properly chop wood.

honestly I got that from sword buyers guide:P. I was just to lazy to say it in my own words and thus thats what the picture had labeled underneath.

Those weren't sharp though, were they?

M.

I have it ask a question of the ARMA guys here. Please don't take this the wrong way. In all honesty, I heard something and I just want to know if it is true or people just talking B.S. I was told that John Clements half-sworded a sharp sword into his own leg at a demo. He then refused medical attention until the end of the demo. I was told he carried on the demo soaked in his own blood.

Again, I am only trying to find out if this is true or not. If false please detail the circumstances so I can confront the person who told me the next time I see him.


Not related...
I have seen that video of the ARMA sparring. I find it rather reckless to be sparring like that without masks. They really should also be using some hand protection, covering the joints and wearing a gorget on their throat. They may want to give high priority to wearing a cup too. It really sets a bad example... both outside the group and within. Swords don't need to be sharp or even pointy to take an eye. Quite honestly, that bit about control is nonsense and total B.S. They are fighting on grass in a natural outdoor setting. When you step on grass it releases moisture and can become slippery. The ground usually is uneven in some places. You can always trip on a root or a small branch. I don't care how much control they think they have, they can't control the environment on which they are fighting on. I love sword fighting very much but its not worth loosing an eye over. I don't want to see anyone in this community get seriously hurt over a hobby following this example of recklessness. If anyone thinks this is anything more then a hobby, they need a reality check.


A second issue that effects all WMA groups is that if someone in ARMA gets seriously hurt and files a claim, it will increase the premium of other WMA groups. That is how insurance works. They spread the risk around to everyone within a given field of coverage.

To the best of my knowledge, ARMA in no way shape or form suggests, encourages, or says it's okay to fight with sharps. I do not know about the particular study group in question in regards to drilling with sharps. But that would not be a normal practice. Nor do we generally advocate fighting with steel blunts or even wasters without proper head and groin protection. Safety is a high priority for us.

That being said, we also strongly emphasize control. Control is not a substitute for safety, nor safety a substitute for control. They compliment each other. We do things that may seem unsafe or less safe to other people or other groups. But it is precisely the aspect of control, coupled with safety, that allows us to go hard and fast and yet not hurt each other.

The two ARMA members in the video fighting with blunts without head protection are two of our most skilled and senior members (J. Clements being one of them). They demonstrated a very high level of control throughout the fight. That is something that would not be permitted at the average ARMA gathering. And it wasn't full intent sparring, not by a long shot. I would hope that would be obvious by the video.

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In all honesty, I heard something and I just want to know if it is true or people just talking B.S. I was told that John Clements half-sworded a sharp sword into his own leg at a demo.

I myself have no idea whether this is true or not and don't want to speculate.

I hope that clears up some of the ARMA issues while remaining on topic. Under no circumstances would I or anybody else I know in ARMA say that it is okay to fight with sharps.

I'm guessing that at this point that there is no chance to put this genie back in the bottle.

Saying that the fighters in that video exhibited utter lack of safety is the same as saying they fought with full intent. That is just not the case. At no point do we say, you don't need safety if you have control. This is what was said on our forum:

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Safe but realistic preparation of a fighter for real combat is the entire function of training.

Yes, there is a level of control and skill that allows fighting with less safety gear in place. Part of developing that control actually requires using steel blunts. This is not to say that all of the steel sparring we do in ARMA is without head and face protection. Quite to the contrary. I do use gloves and fencing mask even when drilling with steel blunts. And not all of the mask-less sparring in ARMA is steel, a lot is with wasters. And the majority of sparring we do, the majority of people in ARMA, use a mask every time.

And yet, the top echelon of leadership is saying this is the standard. You shouldn't spar in this way all the time or in any particular way all the time. But sparring this way some of the time adds an important element to the training as a whole. This is the quality of sparring we are aiming for. This is the level of control we are looking to achieve. You can always wear more protection and you can always pad the weapon more. But nothing makes up for controlling you own actions and movements. Control is fundamental to safety.

P. Cha-

Work on the way you're expressing yourself. You're out of bounds. Conduct yourself in a professional manner or, if you're unable to, please excuse yourself from participating in this topic.

While I may not be amongst the most intelligent or the most wise on these boards, I think I should bring forward one position. I may not necessarily be a fan of this position, nor do I condone or shun it.

We are discussing a martial art. This is, at the end of the day, a codified method of murder. We practice, fruitlessly, to possess a method of taking someones life away. Anything less is a sport. You will inevitably reach a point where your study is taken to the logical conclusion and you must place yourself into a risky situation. That is precisely what the ARMA video is: the logical conclusion. Whether we like it or not, it changes nothing. We may opt never to cross this line, but the end decision lies with the individual. If you never intend to cross this line, then you study with false pretenses. If you are never at risk, then what was the point?

Has anyone here gone sky diving? You need not drop from a plane now -- you can simply go into a vertical wind chamber. Same feeling, but with significantly less risk. Personally, I'd rather people not risk their life and attract bad media, but true media attention will always be negative towards weapons, in particular those so obsolete as the ones we pursue mastery in. It could very well be that I'm wrong, but I would like to point out exactly what we are talking about here.

Case point: Fighting with sharps should never be done unless you fully intend to kill someone, or die trying. Thusly, it shouldn't be attempted.

M.

I generally concord.

Sharp weapons are only for madmen, but for blunt steel we aren't talking of two newbie that spar at 4/4: we are talking of two masters. Even my master spar at full velocity, but only with his best friend, comrade in arms for over three years, and the first time I saw them I thinked: "if I pratice for a lot of years in a far future I can do this..." not "WOW, tomorrow I try this with live weapon and my little sister...".

This is why in battle we tend to fight between people of the same company, even if only in a mock style, because you never know who you can meet in a melee.

And for bruise and more serious injuries, I'm not so devastated doing reenactoring or sparring as my brother and my sister, who play in professional basketball (in Italy): for them to see one of the players with a bad distorsion or a knee fractured is an everygame fact. Bad, but not exceptional.