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Vince Matthews wrote:

How would we catagorize the Higgins Armoury example? No decoration to speak of and a big ole spike and a lantern.Is it a lantern shield or a step towards a supershield ?

To all the armourers here I would also envite comment on the two craftsmen theory,heres the link to the best pics I have found (www.rubens.anu.edu.au/raider4/austria/vienna/museums/ruestung/germany/index.php?page=3) For those of you waiting for a finished project the prelim. plans/patterns are drawn and are awaiting the budget department to give the go ahead to the materiel department so the guy with the hammer can start his thing.I'm off to research the lantern part of this thing so any info there would be a great help.


I can't get your link to work. That's too bad; I was looking forward to seeing it.

Regarding terminology for the Higgins example: how about "lantern shield with spike"? Why does it have to be anything more complicated than that? :) It's clearly different enough from a standard lantern shield and I think that it warrants the qualifying "with..." statement for clarity. For comparison, the Lewerken book on the subject of combined weapons calls the Vienna robo-shield "Lanternenschild, kombiniert mit Handschuh, Stoβklinge, Klingenbrechern und Klingenfängerring".

So we could call the Vienna shield a "lantern shield combined with etc., etc." That shows there is some relation to simple lantern shields but shows a divergence from them that is definitely worth noting.

My caution about terminology was to 1) make sure we weren't confusing ourselves by using a generic term when being more specific would help and to make sure that 2) the use of that overly generic term didn't lead people to generalize and make assumptions about outliers simply because they had been lumped into a too-general category.

For example, let's take a 15th century sword. Everything about it screams Type XV--pointy, edges that run straight to the point without curves, an overall triangular silhouette, pronounced diamond cross-section--but it has a short fuller.

We could just call it a Type XV and be done. But some might see that and assume that since this Type XV is fullered, all the rest must be too. Or they might decide that because this sword is a Type XV and because there are many Type XVs, there must be many fullered Type XVs. Those are bad conclusions to draw and confuse the subject. :)

So we could call it "a Type XV with a fuller" or "an unclassified sword, like Type XV, but fullered) or something. That way, anyone familiar with the terminology can easily envision the characteristics, including the aberrant characteristics.

For the record, I think the Vienna shield is very cool. :) I just still can't imagine it being uber-useful, even though I'd love for it to have been so. How cool would it be to have an elite force armed with those in a night battle? It would be something straight out of a great fantasy film. :)

Until the features of the shield that might make it less than useable in combat start to hinder them.... :)
While checking the thread for any new posts My curiosity about the lantern shield was piqued all over again and I took a moment to find some more resources. I came across a short article by a Will Kalif stating.

Generally, the lantern shield is believed to have been used not for combat but for walking around Italian cities at night. It was protection against ruffians and robbers more so than against combatants in battle. The effectiveness of the Lantern Shield in real combat is questionable but in the context of walking around a dangerous city at night it does warrant some interesting conclusions. First off, it was probably very ominous looking and any would be robber was probably inclined to just move on to the next victim. And if a combative situation arose the whole contraption was probably reasonably effective at staving off injury much in the same way as a porcupine does! The addition of the lantern was also a strong deterrent against attack because any nighttime robber would just avoid the illumination and exposure. So as a real weapon it was probably not very good but as a deterrent it was probably reasonably effective. Any robber or ruffian seeing someone carrying this thing would probably just move on to the next victim.

For clarification In the beginning of the article the type of lantern shield described is the multi-bladed form with the intergraded gauntlet.

So the uber-lantern shields are not truly effective or practical in traditional combat more bluff then bite so to speak. But used as a type of urban self defense item i can see these being scary to go against when you are some half starved thief armed with nothing more than say a dagger?
Sorry about the link screw-up Chad,if you eliminate the www. it seems to work..The link will take you to the museum photos with a zoom feature that can show amazing detail.

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raider4/austria/vien...php?page=3

I see where your coming from on the "what to call it front" and agree with the" lantern shield combined with" idea for academic discussion,that makes sense to me... but I still like your suggestion of "supershield",it's just cooler(more cool?).
I'm having a bit of trouble getting information on the actual lantern,i've only come accross one description but have started a discussion with a period lantern maker named Bob Miller who happens to be in your state.I'm hoping to pick his brain for a better understanding of how the internals functioned.It seems to have had a rotating cylinder inside that held a thin bone "window" of some kind.
This would be so much easier with a plane ticket to Vienna.

Andy,that was my initial thought about it's use.As a bodyguard type weapon it would be very intimidating but fairly useless on a battlefield
Andy C. Nystrom wrote:
....... First off, it was probably very ominous looking and any would be robber was probably inclined to just move on to the next victim. And if a combative situation arose the whole contraption was probably reasonably effective at staving off injury much in the same way as a porcupine does! The addition of the lantern was also a strong deterrent against attack because any nighttime robber would just avoid the illumination and exposure. So as a real weapon it was probably not very good but as a deterrent it was probably reasonably effective. Any robber or ruffian seeing someone carrying this thing would probably just move on to the next victim.

For clarification In the beginning of the article the type of lantern shield described is the multi-bladed form with the intergraded gauntlet.

So the uber-lantern shields are not truly effective or practical in traditional combat more bluff then bite so to speak. But used as a type of urban self defense item i can see these being scary to go against when you are some half starved thief armed with nothing more than say a dagger?


Not so good defending against a rear attack with a half brick in a sock though. ;) Which is slightly more likely than an approach from the front.
Are all these 'Swiss Army Knife with all the blades open' shields left hands and are you sure it's a real weapon and not an armourers 'Masterpiece' or shop window display demonstrating their skill? Sure it looks impressive but it don't look that practical, unless removing bits of yourself and anyone, friend or foe, within a 5' radius was the intention :confused:
Impractical for group combat certainly, but for duel I could see it working even in full daylight. If nothing else it could be used as a decent blocking device and you could probably scare somebody who's never seen one before.

Since it has a lantern it's probably mainly meant to be used in night-time. What looks odd in daylight may well be much more practical in poor light conditions. I suspect someole being lit in the face in darkness would swat at it with their own blade, and risk getting stuck, or if they swat at it with their hand they'd get cut. And if they don't do either they'll get blinded and skewered on the lantern guys' long blade. Win-win situation.

Also, the gauntlet has maille on the inside, I expect this is meant for grabbing shap blades. Useful trick in a duel day or night.
I think that a lantern shield with all these attached blades and spikes would be very effective against unarmored or lightly armored opponents. Definitely not an equipment for large-scale combat, its place would be on streets and inside buildings. Such shield would be extremely useful for searching buildings and pursuing people.

Imagine that you need to check if somebody is inside a dark room. You open a door and instantly have your hand cut off. Or peep inside and receive a blow in the head. But if you have such shield on your hand-no problem. When you enter an absolutely dark room with a source of light people inside would probably see nothing except this light and therefore would most likely attack it. And that's where all these sword catchers/breakers suddenly become very useful.

Another scenario is when you notice a suspicious person on a dark street and want to check who he is. With such shield you can see the person at the same time blinding him. If he attacks you with a weapon you have a shield to deflect the blow, and if he suddenly rushes at you he would be very lucky to survive your shield bash.

Another good thing is that with such shield one can be relaxed but still ready to fight at any moment. Walking with a sword in one hand and a lantern in other would be less comfortable and would probably attract more attention than "simply shield", not to mention the fact that in narrow space such shield may actually be a more effective weapon then a sword.

I wonder if these lanterns were able to resist good shaking and not be put out during the first seconds of a fight.
To update this thread, the Academy of Historical Fencing folks made a sparring version of a lantern shield & it has proved effective. Despite skepticism from many observers over the years, the weight of the evidence now indicates that the lantern shield with extending blade has a number of advantages over a simple round shield. This blade helps to defend the legs, for example. This should be a lesson to us that bizarre & complicated bits of historical arms & armor aren't necessarily impractical. In the case of the lantern shield, it seems the difficulty of making such an elaborate shield did offer potential benefits.
Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
To update this thread, the Academy of Historical Fencing folks made a sparring version of a lantern shield & it has proved effective. Despite skepticism from many observers over the years, the weight of the evidence now indicates that the lantern shield with extending blade has a number of advantages over a simple round shield. This blade helps to defend the legs, for example. This should be a lesson to us that bizarre & complicated bits of historical arms & armor aren't necessarily impractical. In the case of the lantern shield, it seems the difficulty of making such an elaborate shield did offer potential benefits.


Neat, I wonder if they tested it with a functioning lantern.
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