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Patrick De Block wrote:
Maybe you will hate the following quote: 'The use of absolute descriptors is a practice that I try to avoid. Experience has shown me that it can be a perilous undertaking in the field of arms study. However, in this case I am forced to break that rule. This sword features performance and handling qualities that provide a perfect blend of powerful attacks and responsive defense.'


How could I hate it, after all I wrote it. ;) You present some interesting questions.

Quote:
This quote is a rather matter of fact statement, compared to the lyrical sentences on the Vigil.


I do prefer facts over emotionalism when writing something like a product review, where the emphasis is to convey accurate information through the written word. In fact, when I was part of the myArmoury team I often counseled submitters to be less emotional and more logical in their descriptions, but it's a fine line. In the case of this thread it really isn't a review but rather my own personal impressions of this sword. In that sense you'll have to forgive my blathering as I'm very excited about the Vigil. When I read Peters description of the Vigil on Albions site I could tell he was very excited about the design, as soon as I opened the box I knew why.

The Witham sword has always been my favorite medieval sword and several years ago Peter Johnsson and I discussed making a custom version of it. (that would have been my third attempt at having it reproduced via the custom venue) I was then told that a version of the sword might be a future addition to Albions line. I had honestly put that in the back of my mind and focused on other important matters, so when I found out the Vigil had come to fruition I was quite enthusiastic.

Quote:
My question: apart from the historical interest, the aesthetic appeal, the genius of Peter Johnsson in recreating swords, what is the value of this sword? I mean, suppose you're working in a medieval swordshop and I come along to buy an excellent sword, I want 'the best available tool' to do the job, I'm not blind to the other qualities, but my foremost thought is pratical, which sword would you recommend, the Knight or the Vigil. To put my question differently, has the Vigil superior handling characteristics compared to the Knight?


Value? Hmmmm.......................... First, let me clarify a comment I made earlier: when I said, "The Vigil has the best handling characteristics of any sword of this general type I've ever handled." the operative word is type. Comparing the Vigil and the Knight really isn't a direct comparison. Oakeshott put the Vigil in his typology as a Type X. While it exhibits features that put it outside of his typology I suppose that would be the closest comparison. As such the Vigil should be compared to the general Type X and perhaps the Xa. In this context the Vigil might be compared to Albions Reeve or Senlac. The Reeve is a bit more responsive whereas the Vigil is still lively in the hand but will strike with greater power. The Senlac is a bit longer and has a more point-forward feel whereas the Vigil is more responsive by comparison. So making a more direct comparison of these swords I find the Vigil to be the superior overall package.

Comparing the Vigil and the Knight is interesting. The Vigil is the more powerful sword to be sure, but the Knight will be more lively and probably a hair more responsive. The Knight might be the better thruster as this is an obvious part of its design focus, increased thrusting ability. If I remember correctly the Knight was better at following its point into a thrust than the Vigil, but while it might be capable of it thrusting isn't the Vigils priority. I have no doubt the Vigil will be superior in the cut as that is its focus, whereas the Knight is a compromise design or more of a jack-of-all-trades. That's not a criticism but is in fact one of the real assets of the Type XII. Which is better? That would depend upon personal preference and priority. Both would achieve their intended missions very well and I doubt an opponent could tell the difference when you separated him from his limbs. In the end I suppose it depends on your priorities. If your primary concern is backyard cutting I don't think you could do better than the Vigil, this thing will be an absolute cutting monster. On the other hand, if you're a WMA practitioner and specialize in working in I.33 or different types of sword and shield techniques, then you might find the jack-of-all-trades Knight to be more to your liking. I certainly wouldn't advise throwing away your Knight and getting a Vigil, it's more a case of defined excellence than a black and white better/best issue.

My own personal perspective is this: the Knight is a truly excellent sword and an archetypal example of the Type XII. There's another thread currently active wherein the discussion focuses on which sword you'd show a uninformed individual as an example of what a medieval sword was really like. In that sense the Knight would be a first choice for me. It's a very general and common single-handed design from the era that perfectly exemplifies the knightly sword in the age of mail. In my initial post I mentioned the stars aligning, the Knight is another example of that given what it is and I can't think of a better general example of the Type XII currently on the market. On the other hand, my personal preference is without a doubt the Vigil. This lies primarily in the uniqueness of its design. It's not a common design from the period and exhibits many features that are unique and ahead of its time. I'm not a hardcore WMAer, I've done a bit of study on my own but I'm far from highly knowledgeable in the fine minutae of the various techniques. I'm primarily a collector who views his collection as more of a case study than an array of weapons. (I have other things I use professionally that fall into that category) In this respect things like aesthetic value and mechanical complexity carry as much value as practical function. The Vigil is far and away the more interesting design, both aesthetically and mechanically. It's design is bold and imposing yet its mechanical attributes make it a far livelier sword than one would assume by simply looking at it. Based on commonly held perceptions there's a contradiction between mass and handling in the Vigils design and I find this fascinating. Visually it's a more exciting sword and from a design standpoint there's a lot more there to study. Consequently, for me it's more than a tool and as such has more value for me personally.

Now if you walked into my shop I'd try my best to sell you the more expensive Vigil. ;)

I hope this long and rambling post was of help to you.
Dan Dickinson wrote:
Patrick, how thick is it at the cross?
Thanks,
Dan


.195 inch at the cross.
Patrick De Block wrote:
Patrick,

My question: apart from the historical interest, the aesthetic appeal, the genius of Peter Johnsson in recreating swords, what is the value of this sword? I mean, suppose you're working in a medieval swordshop and I come along to buy an excellent sword, I want 'the best available tool' to do the job, I'm not blind to the other qualities, but my foremost thought is pratical, which sword would you recommend, the Knight or the Vigil. To put my question differently, has the Vigil superior handling characteristics compared to the Knight?


In some ways I think the same way... While it is great to collect and appreciate a large number of swords, In some ways, later swords were thought to advance in an overall sense. In fact, would you rather fight with a Prince or a Vigil given the choice?
Thank you, Patrick.

It was Peter's lyricism, and yours which prompted my question. If the Vigil has about the same handling qualities as the Knight it is very interesting because it would be proof of the relative value of the typology. Of course you could say that the Vigil is an atypical type, but still, within a certain period all swords are more or less alike. Only when the surrounding circumstances change the swords will also change. Thus, the Vigil is an extraordinary sword.

What sword I would rather fight with? I would want the best available tool, but considering my present social status, I guess I would have been a farmhand in those times and not be able to buy a sword. Unless, maybe, I lived in the same village as the smith who made the Witham sword. But I'm dreaming.

Ultimately I think it isn't the sword that makes the difference, it's the swordsman. Of course I'm still speaking about the best available tool. A good swordsman with a reasonable sword may survive, a terrible swordsman with an extraordinary sword will probably die. And maybe if that farmhand was preying on a battlefield out of sheer necessity he would find that sword and not know what to do with it, so he threw it in a river called Witham.

On a more serious note, I'm not a collector nor I'm I a hardcore WMA. I'm in JMA. I've been reading for about ten years on WMA and have always refrained from doing it because I thought and still think that to become proficiënt you should just exercise yourself. Reading and comparing might give you new insights, but you keep on training the same thing. It is only recently that I decided to buy two Western swords and knowing how much a well balanced sword can weigh after two hours of constant practice on your own when no one else shows up I decided upon the Knight and the Crécy. The Knight weighs about the same as my katana and I opted for the Crécy because I thought that the Baron would be to heavy for my build. Only afterwards I hit upon the phrase 'jack-of-all-trades' to describe both of them and I'm perfectly happy with that, that's what I was looking for.

And if my present social status as a farmhand would allow me to buy the Vigil, I would buy it. Sometimes I believe in sympathic magic, maybe an extraordinary sword would make it easier to become an extraordinary swordsman.
The Vigil must truly be an awe-inspiring sword in the full definition of the term based on the way Patrick describes it. I always enjoy reading Patrick's reviews and posts, but he seemed rather 'emotional' with this one! It seems the Vigil is so sublime and has reached an unprecedented level, that it exhibits an aura of 'mystery' to anyone who holds it.

In other words, if Patrick says it's a magnificent sword, you better believe it is! Excellent review, Patrick. It seems that the Vigil has raised the bar on production swords. :cool:
It fits in well don't you think? :D

[ Linked Image ]
Patrick,

First let me state my heartfelt thanks to you for your many contributions to this forum over the years. I've appreciated your analysis of various swords and their handling qualities, and look forward to new reviews from you.

I, too have been waiting many years for someone to make a "quality" copy of the Witham sword. The moment I saw the Vigil on Albion's website I emailed Mike with a few questions, and placed an order shortly thereafter. It has not arrived yet, but I anticipate it's delivery in the next week or so. For once, financial means and acquisitive desire have come together, and I am now even more anxious for the Vigil to arrive having read your fine post. For a change, I decided to go with the "antiqued" look on the hilt furniture, with the light brown grip. I can't wait!! I will post a photo or two when it arrives.

I think that those of us in the sword collecting community are extremely lucky to have a manufacturer like Albion. They produce excellent products (IMHO), and are a joy to do business with.

Regards,
Troy Zwicker
Patrick Kelly wrote:
It fits in well don't you think? :D


It certainly does Patrick! That is a great looking collection you have. I like the cross you added to the pommel of your Senlac I believe. I do have a question though. What is the sword on the top opposite your Vigil? The BJ? Or a stock Albion offering since it does look like the Albion mark is on this particular blade.

Scott
Thank you for the kind words Troy. Please be sure to post photos of your Vigil when you receive it, I'm interested to see what the antiquing does for its appearance. I doubt you'll be disappointed.
Scott Kowalski wrote:
I do have a question though. What is the sword on the top opposite your Vigil? The BJ? Or a stock Albion offering since it does look like the Albion mark is on this particular blade.

Scott


Yes, that's the BJ. The mark is Peters personal one: a crown over a capital P and it's stamped into the blade instead of being etched like Albions.
That is a 13th century type X by PJ, right? I always liked that sword since I read your review.
Patrick Kelly wrote:
Scott Kowalski wrote:
I do have a question though. What is the sword on the top opposite your Vigil? The BJ? Or a stock Albion offering since it does look like the Albion mark is on this particular blade.

Scott


Yes, that's the BJ. The mark is Peters personal one: a crown over a capital P and it's stamped into the blade instead of being etched like Albions.


I thought so since I could not remember any of Albion's current offerings with that hilt configuration. And thank you for clearing up the makers mark. Unfortunately at the size of the picture it was hard to make out the mark clearly. THough they would all be cousins at the least since Peter did design them all!

Scott
Luka Borscak wrote:
That is a 13th century type X by PJ, right? I always liked that sword since I read your review.


That's the one, and still my favorite!
With regards to the blade thickness, the Vigil is 0.195 inch at the cross and the Knight is 0.192 inch at the cross in the hands on review, so is the Vigil's "thin" blade description derived from a greater distal taper than that of the Knight?
Paul Watson wrote:
With regards to the blade thickness, the Vigil is 0.195 inch at the cross and the Knight is 0.192 inch at the cross in the hands on review, so is the Vigil's "thin" blade description derived from a greater distal taper than that of the Knight?


The descriptor "thin" is based upon comparing the Vigil to other swords of similar type, this would be the Type X under Oakeshotts classification if you want to use that. I've made no direct correlation between the Vigil and the Knight, others have insisted on doing that. In my mind these are two different swords and probably not the best direct comparison. I no longer own a Knight so I can't compare their rates of distal taper directly.


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Mon 30 Mar, 2009 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total
Hey Patrick, what's going on with the pommel of the Johnsson? Is it just a trick of the light?
Taylor Ellis wrote:
Hey Patrick, what's going on with the pommel of the Johnsson? Is it just a trick of the light?


What exactly do you define as "going on"? If you're talking about what looks to be some kind of smudge of discoloration on the pommel face, that's probably the lighting. I had to stand on a ladder over the swords to get far enough away to get the shot so that looks like reflection.
Well, it was Peter in the thread 'Sneak preview' who was the first.

This is what Peter wrote: 'Compared to the Knight, the Vigil is "richer" in its feel. I think the Vigil offers more in both handling and performance, but that might be my personal feelings for this sword talking.'

The idea to ask you, Patrick, came from Peter.

As to the distal taper of the Knight, since I have one. At the cross: 3/16 inch, at one third from the cross: a hair less than 5/32 inch, at two third from the cross: a hair more than 4/16 inch and at one inch from the point a hair less than 4/16 inch.
Thank you for the clarification Patrick.

For purposes of comparison here as similar measurements taken from the Vigil.

At the Guard: .195 inch, .136 inch one-third from the guard, .115 inch two-thirds from guard, .044 at tip.

I don't mean to sound abrupt or dismissive as the comparison has some interest, but there are many aspects of the Vigil that are interesting. I'd hate to see us get fixated on simply comparing it to the Knight.
Patrick De Block, are your last two measurements meant to be -/32 not -/16.

Patrick Kelly, the only reason I compare the two is because it is the most comparable sword to the Vigil I have held, that is the only relevance the comparism holds for me and I wouldn't want to do so for any other reason as it doesn't fit in with the historical relevance of how the swords develpoed and why.

I wouldn't even bother comparing the Vigil to other type X's even those in Albions line up because as stated elsewhere the Vigil crosses types and may be a later sword than dated by Oakeshott. You even told me once a long time ago that trying to define swords by typology was not your prefered way of assessing them when looking at each sword as an individual piece and this is the way that I think when I see more unique swords like the Vigil.
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