Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 7:43 am
| J.D. Crawford wrote: |
| Funny, every time this topic (of Windlass Vikings) comes up, I forget to mention the 'Transitional Viking'. Of course its not really a viking sword, and its no longer made, but damn that was a good sword for the money. I will never part with mine. |
I still regret for not buying one when I saw it in the store.
Posts: 55 Location: Michigan
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 9:58 am
| Luka Borscak wrote: |
| J.D. Crawford wrote: | | Funny, every time this topic (of Windlass Vikings) comes up, I forget to mention the 'Transitional Viking'. Of course its not really a viking sword, and its no longer made, but damn that was a good sword for the money. I will never part with mine. |
I still regret for not buying one when I saw it in the store. |
Sorry if this is off topic, but is it this one?
http://thesteelsource.com/html/mr500238.htm
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 2:33 pm
| Josh Maxwell wrote: |
| Luka Borscak wrote: | | J.D. Crawford wrote: | | Funny, every time this topic (of Windlass Vikings) comes up, I forget to mention the 'Transitional Viking'. Of course its not really a viking sword, and its no longer made, but damn that was a good sword for the money. I will never part with mine. |
I still regret for not buying one when I saw it in the store. |
Sorry if this is off topic, but is it this one?
http://thesteelsource.com/html/mr500238.htm |
Yes, and this is crazy good price. Now I regret I'm not in USA to buy this one. ;)
Posts: 1,241 Location: NC
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 2:44 pm
| Josh Maxwell wrote: |
| Tom King wrote: | I found it in a badly written book by R.G. Grant Warrior: a visual history of the fighting man. All It had was the picture without its source and an agnowledgments page with sources ranging from the viking ship museum of Roskilde, denmark to Halfdan Badgerbeard. It looks like a Museum piece in the picture, but it could be some overweight
pseudo-vikings toy. If windlass made a reproduction of it, then it must have some historical precidence. |
Sorry to bring this up so late, but I just realized I own this book. As Tom has stated, the book is poorly written. If anyone else owns this book the sword he has mentioned is located on page 56. The book is copyright 2007.
The sword definitely appears to be a modern replica. My guess is that the sword was built using what looks to be a del tin blade that has been re-hilted and beat up a bit to give the impression of wear. The scabbard is also very close to what Windlass is offering, though this example also includes a wooden bridge covered in fur.
The sword presented in this book is so close to "The Sword of the Viking King", I'd say that it is either a prototype for the sword being offered today, or was simply copied by Windlass, as they've often done.
Just to clarify for anyone wondering. |
Most of the very early weapons in that book are replicas. When you get to the latter day time frame, firearms especially, you begin to see the real thing. I have that book too - got it at a Walden's that is closing down for, I think, less than $10. I am glad I did not pay the original cover price.
Posts: 404 Location: Oxford, England
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 3:27 pm
| Quote: |
I find the big bladed choppers to be the best, but between 800 and 1100 viking swords drastically changed as more emphasis was put on stabbing. The tinker blade is a good compromise between an axe and a spear! And the problem with the handshake grip is that the sword would literally fall out of your hand at the hilt although on a lighter sword it might work. I find it strange that nobody thought of the fact that hilts got longer as the dark ages progressed, making it easier to weild with a hammer grip! |
I have to say this isn't exactly true, many later period swords have equally short grips. When the sword is designed primarily to be used in conjunction with a shield the grips tend to be around four inches. Using a handshake grip properly the sword, regardless of weight will not fall out of ones hand. I have never seen this sword so cannot comment from feel. From its stats it is actually fairly similar in weight and balance to several Viking era swords. On modern replicas there is often to long a grip, most Viking grips where right around 3.9 inches. How they were held is debatable, but in general that is how they were made.
As for the Hanwei/Tinker Viking sword, it isn't exactly accurate. It has a hilt that pre-dates the blade by a few hundred years. The blade has to acute of a tip, more reminiscent of 11th century blades.
The problem with re-creating Viking era blades is that to be done properly they are just too expensive for most people. Even the "cheap" Viking era swords contain very difficult to reproduce features. The majority of Viking era blades have intricate hilt design, often incorporating non-ferrous inlay, and pattern-welded blades. Re-creating these elements is impossible in the sub $1,500 price range.
The "Viking King" scabbard is awful as it is now, but if we look at the scabbards Windlass usually includes with their swords, it is actually perhaps a step up. From the pictures it looks like if you rip off the ghastly fur and cheap leather, it has a wood core, I could be wrong of course. With a wood core you can just put on a new covering and add a belt. The last Windlass sword I got had a cardboard scabbard covered in faux suede. So the wood core part is nice, if it is true. As it is now, it is one of the WORST scabbards I have ever seen.
Cheers,
Hadrian
:)
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 3:43 pm
Hadrian, I think you might be a little to harsh to our poor Hanwei Tinker Viking. It's hilt is quite true to 9th and 10th century original except of course the two piece pommel, and for the blade, it isn't typical but look at these 10th century swords:
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxii03.jpg
Posts: 404 Location: Oxford, England
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 3:49 pm
To follow what your saying 9th century hilt with 10th century blade. That's a hundred years. There are so many exceptions to the "norm" in history that almost everything is possible, it is what is probable that is the question. The uniform, machine finish, really kills it for me. It looks modern. It is much easier to use a blade that pre-dates the hilt, because that was done quite often in history; going the other way around is possible, just not probable (off the top of my head I can think of only dozen or so swords where this is the case).
Cheers,
Hadrian
Posts: 404 Location: Oxford, England
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 3:52 pm
I am not saying it couldn't have happened, there is a two handed Viking sword of all things. I am just saying did it happen?
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 4:26 pm
It's not typical and it looks a bit modern, sure. But it is historically at least plausible. Hilt type started in the 9th century but was used, and it's similar variants throughout 10th century. And blades were more diverse than we might think. Back than, all swords were custom. ;)
Posts: 656
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 6:01 pm
OK, we seem to have finished talking about the Sword of the Viking King and started talking about the Hanwei Tinker Viking.
So I have a question: If the hilt of the HT Viking is anachronistic for the blade style then what types of hilt would be more appropriate?
I feel I have to make a comment about the metal finish on modern day replica weapons. I, for one, don't KNOW what a 10th century sword looked like when it was newly finished. As far as I'm concerned , NO ONE does, for sure. I will agree that many of the top quality replicas, production and custom ones alike, are much too finely finished to really replicate what the actual swords were probably like when new. On the other hand, if Arms and Armor or Albion made their weapons with the finish and tolerances that were acceptable at the time the originals were made, no one would buy them today. We are all of us used to standards of finish and precision manufacture that would leave a tenth or fifteenth century smith speechless with awe.
I think these relatively low cost and fairly high quality replica weapons are terrific! First they provide an avenue for people to get involved in historic weapons for a relatively small sum of money. Second they make a sword that will not fly apart and injure someone when it cuts a milk jug or pumpkin. Thirdly they make a sword that is inexpensive enough and generic enough that it can be a wonderful project sword. We've been treated to seeing several very talented guys take inexpensve swords and make them into amazing looking weapons.
Posts: 404 Location: Oxford, England
Fri 08 Jan, 2010 7:12 pm
| Quote: |
| I feel I have to make a comment about the metal finish on modern day replica weapons. I, for one, don't KNOW what a 10th century sword looked like when it was newly finished. As far as I'm concerned , NO ONE does, for sure. I will agree that many of the top quality replicas, production and custom ones alike, are much too finely finished to really replicate what the actual swords were probably like when new. On the other hand, if Arms and Armor or Albion made their weapons with the finish and tolerances that were acceptable at the time the originals were made, no one would buy them today. We are all of us used to standards of finish and precision manufacture that would leave a tenth or fifteenth century smith speechless with awe. |
It is an unfortunate predicament, the most accurate swords are often unappealing to the modern consumer. The metal finish isn't what concerns me, it's the swords lines and geometry. Through research, examination of copious originals, and period descriptions we can get a pretty good idea of what items looked like when new. Originals present an odd dichotomy, in many ways they are finished beyond the level presented on most reproductions, in other ways however they actually do fall behind modern CNC replicas. I have examined, literally, hundreds of originals, the sheer variety is amazing. Many are very cleanly executed, many are shoddily thrown together.
| Quote: |
| So I have a question: If the hilt of the HT Viking is anachronistic for the blade style then what types of hilt would be more appropriate? |
The blade is more typical of many 11th century blades, so 11th century fittings would be more typical. Think Albion: Reeve, Bayeux, Stamford, Norman... I personally think it would look very nice with a brazil nut pommel and straight cross.
| Quote: |
| I think these relatively low cost and fairly high quality replica weapons are terrific! First they provide an avenue for people to get involved in historic weapons for a relatively small sum of money. Second they make a sword that will not fly apart and injure someone when it cuts a milk jug or pumpkin. Thirdly they make a sword that is inexpensive enough and generic enough that it can be a wonderful project sword. We've been treated to seeing several very talented guys take inexpensve swords and make them into amazing looking weapons |
Many of these inexpensive swords can be made into very wonderful swords. That however depends on the individual's talent. When looking at these swords I try and simply look at how the sword looks now, because that is how the average customer is going to keep it. If you discuss based on its customizability it becomes far more difficult to talk about. A full fledged smith is able to do things like heat-treating the blade, regrinding, etc. At the lower level people can perhaps only replace a poor grip. I agree that some of these inexpensive swords can be great, just not all. The Hanwei/Tinker looks to be a nice sword, easily customizable. I was just commenting on its current looks.
Cheers,
Hadrian
Posts: 1,903 Location: Toronto
Sat 09 Jan, 2010 5:26 am
Thanks for chipping in Hadrian. I wish I had your access to original swords, but just from my ordinary experience with museums, pictures, and literature I agree with you 100%. We need to keep this evidence-based.
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