Hi Myles,
Being the masters of wood craft they undoubtedely appear to have been, I suspect much as we do today, they used coppicing methods to control the growth of saplings to the desired length and thickness and then used a draw knife for shaping.This seems to my mind a simpler method then splitting larger logs to shape and is infinetly a sustainable source.
best
Dave
| David Huggins wrote: |
| Hi Myles,
Being the masters of wood craft they undoubtedely appear to have been, I suspect much as we do today, they used coppicing methods to control the growth of saplings to the desired length and thickness and then used a draw knife for shaping.This seems to my mind a simpler method then splitting larger logs to shape and is infinetly a sustainable source. best Dave |
i agree with dave, i also remember seeing a quotation about someone peeling the bark from their shaft, so the coppicing and harvesting might be as far as they went.
Thanks Myles
I'd just like to attempt to answer your question on interlace. As Christian points out it was the Northumbrian Anglo-Saxon Christian scribes who sustained an earlier pagan germanic motif within the manuscripts that they produced; The most well known of these manuscripts are the Book of Durrow, written in the second half of the seventh century, the Lindisfarne Gospel, written about 700 and the Book of Kells, believed to have been written in Iona about 800. These are based on illuminated manuscript books from the Mediterranean, but show few stylistic similarities with these.
There are Hiberno (Irish) and British elements, especially within the figurative and spiral scroll motiffs to these illustrations but the overwhelming design elements are from an Anglo-Saxon expresion, the ribbon interlace and zoomrphic motifs, derived from earlier decorative elements of the Early Anglo-Saxon goldsmiths. These skills of these Anglo-Saxon craftsmen and scribes was recognised on the Continent, some of them working in Rome and the areas now known as Germany and France, and influenced the arts of these countries as well as those of their 'Celtic' neighbours in the British Isles, to such an extent that when a modern popular audiance sees such interlace and zoomorphic designs they are thought of as being 'Celtic'!!
As christian Anglo-Saxons would send missions to pagan Scandinavia and Northern Germany, stepping back, like wise the Hiberno Celtic Church sent missions to convert the early pagan Anglo-Saxons, normally the elite, and these missions where also influenced by the pagan Anglo-Saxon art forms and this can be seen in early Irish Artifacts.;Francis Henry commented 'The oniprescent influence of Saxon objects so manifest in these works can easliy be explained by the contacts which exsisted in the seventh century betwen England and Ireland. Some Saxon objects may have have reached Ireland by trade or through travellers whilst England was still pagan.Later the Irish missions in England were an obvious means of transmission of patterns and objects. Those princes and their retinues and all those hundreds of students who came to Ireland must have worn belt buckles and brooches which drew the attenion of native craftsmen'.
For influences on early pagan Anglo-Saxon art we need to look else where, probably to the homelands of the folk who would become known as the Anglo-Saxons., whose close contacs where in general Scandinavia.
The Swedish scholar Bernhard Salin in the 19th cenury defined various stages of germanic art forms and development. Style 1, ultimetly believed to have derived from Roman Military and provincial rt appears to ave become important in Scandinavia towards the end of the fifth century, centering in the west of Denmark and Norway, and mainly is a zoomorphic style, and within this motiff it contains three strand bands or ribbons.The style spreads from Scandinavia to some areas of Central Europe and the Rhineland, but does not seem to thrive in these areas as much as it did in Anglo-Saxon England.
Interlace designs can also be found on the weapon sacrifice deposits and these have also been asigned seperate 'styles', and these also appear at the begining of the fith century, with more complictaed interlace designs with zoomorphic terminals covering the surfaces of wooden stabbing weapons found at Kragehul; similair designs are also found on spear shafts from Nydam III and again from Illerup on knife handles.
Salin Style II appears in Sweden and earlier examples are also found in western Germany, the three strand elements of Style I becoming orderly interlaced patterns. These elements are clearly visible on the pressbleche and sword hilt garniture from the Vendel/Valsgarde greaves and in England amongst other pre-christian burials, the SuttonHoo barrow ground.
Other scholars have looked elswhere for the origins of interlace motiffs amongst germanic cultural groups, Herbert Kuhn believed that plaited interlace deveolped not from a classical source but from a form of chip carving discernable on rbroches with radiate semi-circular headed wih oval feet and was essentilly of mid german origin , this formof brooch lacking amonst Visigothic and Ostrogothic jewellary, scarce in Scandinavia and Frankia.
Zeiss maintained that interlace was a loan motif from the Lombards after there arrival in Italy and it was suggested that the earliest posible time for its adoption by craftsmen north of the Alps to the close of the sixth century!
I believe that what can be said is that during a period between 500 to 700 interlace ws known by the Alammani, Bajuwaren, Thurungians, Fresians, Anglo-Saxons,Franks and Scandinavians and was used as a decorative motif on cultural artifacts to a greater or lesser degree in a simple or highly evolved form.
I hope this helps with your question.
best
Dave
I'd just like to attempt to answer your question on interlace. As Christian points out it was the Northumbrian Anglo-Saxon Christian scribes who sustained an earlier pagan germanic motif within the manuscripts that they produced; The most well known of these manuscripts are the Book of Durrow, written in the second half of the seventh century, the Lindisfarne Gospel, written about 700 and the Book of Kells, believed to have been written in Iona about 800. These are based on illuminated manuscript books from the Mediterranean, but show few stylistic similarities with these.
There are Hiberno (Irish) and British elements, especially within the figurative and spiral scroll motiffs to these illustrations but the overwhelming design elements are from an Anglo-Saxon expresion, the ribbon interlace and zoomrphic motifs, derived from earlier decorative elements of the Early Anglo-Saxon goldsmiths. These skills of these Anglo-Saxon craftsmen and scribes was recognised on the Continent, some of them working in Rome and the areas now known as Germany and France, and influenced the arts of these countries as well as those of their 'Celtic' neighbours in the British Isles, to such an extent that when a modern popular audiance sees such interlace and zoomorphic designs they are thought of as being 'Celtic'!!
As christian Anglo-Saxons would send missions to pagan Scandinavia and Northern Germany, stepping back, like wise the Hiberno Celtic Church sent missions to convert the early pagan Anglo-Saxons, normally the elite, and these missions where also influenced by the pagan Anglo-Saxon art forms and this can be seen in early Irish Artifacts.;Francis Henry commented 'The oniprescent influence of Saxon objects so manifest in these works can easliy be explained by the contacts which exsisted in the seventh century betwen England and Ireland. Some Saxon objects may have have reached Ireland by trade or through travellers whilst England was still pagan.Later the Irish missions in England were an obvious means of transmission of patterns and objects. Those princes and their retinues and all those hundreds of students who came to Ireland must have worn belt buckles and brooches which drew the attenion of native craftsmen'.
For influences on early pagan Anglo-Saxon art we need to look else where, probably to the homelands of the folk who would become known as the Anglo-Saxons., whose close contacs where in general Scandinavia.
The Swedish scholar Bernhard Salin in the 19th cenury defined various stages of germanic art forms and development. Style 1, ultimetly believed to have derived from Roman Military and provincial rt appears to ave become important in Scandinavia towards the end of the fifth century, centering in the west of Denmark and Norway, and mainly is a zoomorphic style, and within this motiff it contains three strand bands or ribbons.The style spreads from Scandinavia to some areas of Central Europe and the Rhineland, but does not seem to thrive in these areas as much as it did in Anglo-Saxon England.
Interlace designs can also be found on the weapon sacrifice deposits and these have also been asigned seperate 'styles', and these also appear at the begining of the fith century, with more complictaed interlace designs with zoomorphic terminals covering the surfaces of wooden stabbing weapons found at Kragehul; similair designs are also found on spear shafts from Nydam III and again from Illerup on knife handles.
Salin Style II appears in Sweden and earlier examples are also found in western Germany, the three strand elements of Style I becoming orderly interlaced patterns. These elements are clearly visible on the pressbleche and sword hilt garniture from the Vendel/Valsgarde greaves and in England amongst other pre-christian burials, the SuttonHoo barrow ground.
Other scholars have looked elswhere for the origins of interlace motiffs amongst germanic cultural groups, Herbert Kuhn believed that plaited interlace deveolped not from a classical source but from a form of chip carving discernable on rbroches with radiate semi-circular headed wih oval feet and was essentilly of mid german origin , this formof brooch lacking amonst Visigothic and Ostrogothic jewellary, scarce in Scandinavia and Frankia.
Zeiss maintained that interlace was a loan motif from the Lombards after there arrival in Italy and it was suggested that the earliest posible time for its adoption by craftsmen north of the Alps to the close of the sixth century!
I believe that what can be said is that during a period between 500 to 700 interlace ws known by the Alammani, Bajuwaren, Thurungians, Fresians, Anglo-Saxons,Franks and Scandinavians and was used as a decorative motif on cultural artifacts to a greater or lesser degree in a simple or highly evolved form.
I hope this helps with your question.
best
Dave
| David Huggins wrote: |
| Thanks Myles
I'd just like to attempt to answer your question on interlace. As Christian points out it was the Northumbrian Anglo-Saxon Christian scribes who sustained an earlier pagan germanic motif within the manuscripts that they produced; The most well known of these manuscripts are the Book of Durrow, written in the second half of the seventh century, the Lindisfarne Gospel, written about 700 and the Book of Kells, believed to have been written in Iona about 800. These are based on illuminated manuscript books from the Mediterranean, but show few stylistic similarities with these. There are Hiberno (Irish) and British elements, especially within the figurative and spiral scroll motiffs to these illustrations but the overwhelming design elements are from an Anglo-Saxon expresion, the ribbon interlace and zoomrphic motifs, derived from earlier decorative elements of the Early Anglo-Saxon goldsmiths. These skills of these Anglo-Saxon craftsmen and scribes was recognised on the Continent, some of them working in Rome and the areas now known as Germany and France, and influenced the arts of these countries as well as those of their 'Celtic' neighbours in the British Isles, to such an extent that when a modern popular audiance sees such interlace and zoomorphic designs they are thought of as being 'Celtic'!! As christian Anglo-Saxons would send missions to pagan Scandinavia and Northern Germany, stepping back, like wise the Hiberno Celtic Church sent missions to convert the early pagan Anglo-Saxons, normally the elite, and these missions where also influenced by the pagan Anglo-Saxon art forms and this can be seen in early Irish Artifacts.;Francis Henry commented 'The oniprescent influence of Saxon objects so manifest in these works can easliy be explained by the contacts which exsisted in the seventh century betwen England and Ireland. Some Saxon objects may have have reached Ireland by trade or through travellers whilst England was still pagan.Later the Irish missions in England were an obvious means of transmission of patterns and objects. Those princes and their retinues and all those hundreds of students who came to Ireland must have worn belt buckles and brooches which drew the attenion of native craftsmen'. For influences on early pagan Anglo-Saxon art we need to look else where, probably to the homelands of the folk who would become known as the Anglo-Saxons., whose close contacs where in general Scandinavia. The Swedish scholar Bernhard Salin in the 19th cenury defined various stages of germanic art forms and development. Style 1, ultimetly believed to have derived from Roman Military and provincial rt appears to ave become important in Scandinavia towards the end of the fifth century, centering in the west of Denmark and Norway, and mainly is a zoomorphic style, and within this motiff it contains three strand bands or ribbons.The style spreads from Scandinavia to some areas of Central Europe and the Rhineland, but does not seem to thrive in these areas as much as it did in Anglo-Saxon England. Interlace designs can also be found on the weapon sacrifice deposits and these have also been asigned seperate 'styles', and these also appear at the begining of the fith century, with more complictaed interlace designs with zoomorphic terminals covering the surfaces of wooden stabbing weapons found at Kragehul; similair designs are also found on spear shafts from Nydam III and again from Illerup on knife handles. Salin Style II appears in Sweden and earlier examples are also found in western Germany, the three strand elements of Style I becoming orderly interlaced patterns. These elements are clearly visible on the pressbleche and sword hilt garniture from the Vendel/Valsgarde greaves and in England amongst other pre-christian burials, the SuttonHoo barrow ground. Other scholars have looked elswhere for the origins of interlace motiffs amongst germanic cultural groups, Herbert Kuhn believed that plaited interlace deveolped not from a classical source but from a form of chip carving discernable on rbroches with radiate semi-circular headed wih oval feet and was essentilly of mid german origin , this formof brooch lacking amonst Visigothic and Ostrogothic jewellary, scarce in Scandinavia and Frankia. Zeiss maintained that interlace was a loan motif from the Lombards after there arrival in Italy and it was suggested that the earliest posible time for its adoption by craftsmen north of the Alps to the close of the sixth century! I believe that what can be said is that during a period between 500 to 700 interlace ws known by the Alammani, Bajuwaren, Thurungians, Fresians, Anglo-Saxons,Franks and Scandinavians and was used as a decorative motif on cultural artifacts to a greater or lesser degree in a simple or highly evolved form. I hope this helps with your question. best Dave |
Well, it hasn't taken long, but I've thought of something else I'd like to see discussed. Brooches are a real are of interest to me, but I know relatively little as to the types of brooches common during various parts of the Pre-Roman Iron Age, Roman Iron Age, Migrations, etc.
Has anyone ever seen a typology of brooches?
I know that the La Tene brooches were of a type of bow brooch, which was then picked up by the Romans, and subsequently altered stylistically by various peoples in Rome, Gaul, and Germania, with some very distinct forms emerging over time.
Would anyone like to shed some more light on the subject for me? Post your hearts out, please :lol:
Has anyone ever seen a typology of brooches?
I know that the La Tene brooches were of a type of bow brooch, which was then picked up by the Romans, and subsequently altered stylistically by various peoples in Rome, Gaul, and Germania, with some very distinct forms emerging over time.
Would anyone like to shed some more light on the subject for me? Post your hearts out, please :lol:
Hello again Myles
A study of brooches (or fibula as they are commonly called on the Continent) across the whole of the time periods that you stipulate would be a huge undertaking I think. Just to give you an impression, even in the Early Ahglo-Saxon period you get a variety of brooches styles; Animal,Bird,Annular, Quoit, Penannular, Disc, Button,Openwork disc, Polychrome disc, and Bow brooches etc, with many of these varieties having sub classifications and regional differences,
best
Dave
A study of brooches (or fibula as they are commonly called on the Continent) across the whole of the time periods that you stipulate would be a huge undertaking I think. Just to give you an impression, even in the Early Ahglo-Saxon period you get a variety of brooches styles; Animal,Bird,Annular, Quoit, Penannular, Disc, Button,Openwork disc, Polychrome disc, and Bow brooches etc, with many of these varieties having sub classifications and regional differences,
best
Dave
similarly, when do penannulars go out of fashion?, i deal generally in late saxon stuff ( at the moment) and have heard it said that penannulars are out of fashion by then.
Almgren had founded a general typology of fibulae and the relative chronology is very much based on his studies....but of course uncomplete and unfinished. He hoped it would be continued but as always.....The path of a general and borderless typology was left by later Archaeologists and each single country even the single regions started a more local chronology and typology, it woud be - as Dave said - a huge work to collect all and bring them together in one huge encyclopedia (like it was tried with coins!!)
BTW: I love this thread also. It zooms wide from the single artifact like a weapon or a comb to a total view. And as we can see in this precious dicussion, the more we do the more we see the interwovenness of the people in old europe (sic!) and understand the "Germanics" as pars pro toto and not as insolated species from (planet) Mars ;)
Even more: we start to understand that "Germanics" never realy existed, just people living together in smaller or bigger communities, more or less similair to each other and which changed much from region to region and from time to time, who where defined as "Germanic" by others first using this term themselves very seldom, and if, using it to give themselves a definition for a political discernable conture. AND WE NO LONGER SEE THEM AS A RACE as my grandfathers (and grandmothers) unfortunately did. We get a glimpse of a well connected and kind of global interacting world probably with less controllable boardes than nowadays. And we see how quick and how intuitive those ancient folks interacted besides all differencies and all those wars and rivalry. So we learn how difficult it can be to find something seriously "typical". The more we search for the less we find.
Thank you all for keeping these threads alive! Special thanks to Dave, you contribute to this thread to reach this high level by adding those valuable art-historically reflections, which i could only give in a very rudimental way!!
3841 views of Iron Age Crafts and 9122 views of Germanic Iron Age Weapons in more or less one month demonstrate the great interest in this theme, and let me say, I am very glad about this! Now I know I am employed with the right job :) ...
Chris
BTW: I love this thread also. It zooms wide from the single artifact like a weapon or a comb to a total view. And as we can see in this precious dicussion, the more we do the more we see the interwovenness of the people in old europe (sic!) and understand the "Germanics" as pars pro toto and not as insolated species from (planet) Mars ;)
Even more: we start to understand that "Germanics" never realy existed, just people living together in smaller or bigger communities, more or less similair to each other and which changed much from region to region and from time to time, who where defined as "Germanic" by others first using this term themselves very seldom, and if, using it to give themselves a definition for a political discernable conture. AND WE NO LONGER SEE THEM AS A RACE as my grandfathers (and grandmothers) unfortunately did. We get a glimpse of a well connected and kind of global interacting world probably with less controllable boardes than nowadays. And we see how quick and how intuitive those ancient folks interacted besides all differencies and all those wars and rivalry. So we learn how difficult it can be to find something seriously "typical". The more we search for the less we find.
Thank you all for keeping these threads alive! Special thanks to Dave, you contribute to this thread to reach this high level by adding those valuable art-historically reflections, which i could only give in a very rudimental way!!
3841 views of Iron Age Crafts and 9122 views of Germanic Iron Age Weapons in more or less one month demonstrate the great interest in this theme, and let me say, I am very glad about this! Now I know I am employed with the right job :) ...
Chris
Last edited by Christian Böhling on Wed 03 Mar, 2010 12:58 pm; edited 5 times in total
| K J Seago wrote: |
| similarly, when do penannulars go out of fashion?, i deal generally in late saxon stuff ( at the moment) and have heard it said that penannulars are out of fashion by then. |
I am not sure, Dave may help me - but as far as I know, penannulars NEVER really went out of fashion....I think they are the most long living kind of "brooches" ever used...(If that, what I joking call my memory doesn´t mislead me, there are late viking penannulars) And wasn´t William Wallace still wearing such a brooch (ok, in the movie....)?
| David Huggins wrote: |
| Hello again Myles
A study of brooches (or fibula as they are commonly called on the Continent) across the whole of the time periods that you stipulate would be a huge undertaking I think. Just to give you an impression, even in the Early Ahglo-Saxon period you get a variety of brooches styles; Animal,Bird,Annular, Quoit, Penannular, Disc, Button,Openwork disc, Polychrome disc, and Bow brooches etc, with many of these varieties having sub classifications and regional differences, best Dave |
It's my understanding that the later brooches are ultimately derived from this earlier type, and of similar (but different) construction, and that both are on a sort of line of descent that ends with the modern safety pin.
I just have no idea which types and styles were used during the various centuries in the areas of modern Germany and Scandinavia.
I only mentioned such a large time frame because it was my impression that they were sort of related, not because I wanted a comprehensive list. Sorry for the confusion, and for all the uneducated questions I've had lately :lol:
Hi Myles
I'm no expert ( and certainly a very poor typer who should really check his posts for spelling and poor grammar before submitting them :eek:) and just like many of us on this forum I am just another non academic individual with certain life long passions and curiosity, and like wise your own questions reflect this shared curiosity and are by no means 'uneducated'. Ask me how to change a tyre and I would not have a clue!!
Sorry but I can not comment too much on the bow type fibula from the La Tene and Roman period, as this is outside of my interest sphere apart to say I know of them but have not studied them much. Certainly there is a progression from these brooches as you observe, I can even think of a rare type of fastener from the early Anglo-Saxon period that is for all intents and purposes the same model as a modern safety pin..it would seem that there is very little new under the Sun!
Regarding Mr Seago's question on penannular brooches, Christian is correct is saying that they have never disappeared...they are still in use in the British Isles as any self respecting Scotish Groom in traditional attire on his wedding day will tell you.
Penannular brooches where worn during the Late Saxon period, although large disc brooches seem to be de-rigour amongst those who could afford them, likewise in Scandinavia prior to the Viking Age they seem to be very rare, but become popular after contact with the British Isles and Ireland , and amongst the Hiberno-Norse there are some very eleaborate versions, the so-called thistle headed type with extraordinary length pins.Going back to the disc brooches in use in the British Isles, there are regional variations in decorative elements, due to Norse/Danish influence, some purely with Late Anglo-Saxon motifs and some with Ringerike designs, the best think to do would be to ask your self what type of class of person you are portraying and what cultural type Saxon/Viking/Anglo-Scandinavian, if in doubt about what to wear ask your Authenticity Officer, oh, and what gender you are portraying!! .Trefoil brooches appear in Scandinavian influenced areas of England but in Scandinavia they appear to be worn by females.
Christian... thanks for the compliment.
best
Dave
I'm no expert ( and certainly a very poor typer who should really check his posts for spelling and poor grammar before submitting them :eek:) and just like many of us on this forum I am just another non academic individual with certain life long passions and curiosity, and like wise your own questions reflect this shared curiosity and are by no means 'uneducated'. Ask me how to change a tyre and I would not have a clue!!
Sorry but I can not comment too much on the bow type fibula from the La Tene and Roman period, as this is outside of my interest sphere apart to say I know of them but have not studied them much. Certainly there is a progression from these brooches as you observe, I can even think of a rare type of fastener from the early Anglo-Saxon period that is for all intents and purposes the same model as a modern safety pin..it would seem that there is very little new under the Sun!
Regarding Mr Seago's question on penannular brooches, Christian is correct is saying that they have never disappeared...they are still in use in the British Isles as any self respecting Scotish Groom in traditional attire on his wedding day will tell you.
Penannular brooches where worn during the Late Saxon period, although large disc brooches seem to be de-rigour amongst those who could afford them, likewise in Scandinavia prior to the Viking Age they seem to be very rare, but become popular after contact with the British Isles and Ireland , and amongst the Hiberno-Norse there are some very eleaborate versions, the so-called thistle headed type with extraordinary length pins.Going back to the disc brooches in use in the British Isles, there are regional variations in decorative elements, due to Norse/Danish influence, some purely with Late Anglo-Saxon motifs and some with Ringerike designs, the best think to do would be to ask your self what type of class of person you are portraying and what cultural type Saxon/Viking/Anglo-Scandinavian, if in doubt about what to wear ask your Authenticity Officer, oh, and what gender you are portraying!! .Trefoil brooches appear in Scandinavian influenced areas of England but in Scandinavia they appear to be worn by females.
Christian... thanks for the compliment.
best
Dave
| David Huggins wrote: |
|
I'm no expert |
Isn´t it passion that makes experts with or without a degree? You pretty much know what you are writing about!
Cheers
Chris
the problem there is my group were discussing about making me authenticity officer a while back!
The easy answer if this is the case, if in doubt give an honest asnwer and say that you are not entirely sure and get back to them after some research, or refer them to your Society A.O.
best
Dave
best
Dave
K.J Seago asked, "similarly, when do penannulars go out of fashion?, i deal generally in late saxon stuff ( at the moment) and have heard it said that penannulars are out of fashion by then."
Well, from one non-expert to another my understanding was that penannular brooches were used in Scandinavia into the late Viking age and I've read they were used into the medieval era.
Well, from one non-expert to another my understanding was that penannular brooches were used in Scandinavia into the late Viking age and I've read they were used into the medieval era.
| Myles Mulkey wrote: |
| I have another knotwork question. Can anybody tell me where this find is? I can't remember where I found these photos, but my feeling is that they are Frankish and are 6th or 7th Century. |
Dürbheim, Germany. It's part of a longsax scabard, so that makes it 8th century, or very late 7nd at the earliest (though the length/width ratio would make it 8th IMO). Here's some information on the find:
http://www.duerbheim.de/cms/front_content.php?idart=172
Attached is another photo of the find. Thanks for the close-ups b.t.w. :)
Attachment: 85.27 KB
| Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote: | ||
Dürbheim, Germany. It's part of a longsax scabard, so that makes it 8th century, or very late 7nd at the earliest (though the length/width ratio would make it 8th IMO). Here's some information on the find: http://www.duerbheim.de/cms/front_content.php?idart=172 Attached is another photo of the find. Thanks for the close-ups b.t.w. :) |
This thread has been quiet for a while, but I have a topic that may be of some interest. I recently forged a Viking-type fire striker and learned to make fire the period way (also learned to make friction fires with a bowdrill, but the striker method is much easier and preferred :lol: ) For me to get a fire going, I had to use charred linen cloth to catch the spark and make a reliable ember. My question is, has anybody (Christian? Peter? Anybody?) experimented with making fire with the Illerup strikers?
And an unrelated question: What gear would a Saxon or Chauci of this period carry with him? What type of fire striker? What clothing styles, brooches, etc?
And an unrelated question: What gear would a Saxon or Chauci of this period carry with him? What type of fire striker? What clothing styles, brooches, etc?
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