Posts: 1,504 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 3:58 pm
Re: Next Question
R Ashby wrote: |
My next quesrtion is, how effective would a lighter blade like a walloon or a rapier, coupled with a dagger, be against heavier weapons such as an axe, a spear or a hand-and-a-half long sword? |
A rapier is hardly a light blade. For rapier against longsword, you have an advantage in reach. 4" more blade might be about typical, and you'll get an extra 4" or so advantage due to the one-handed grip and stance. Win on reach, lose on leverage. Better be ready with the dagger! "How effective" will come down to "how skilled".
I wouldn't like to take rapier + dagger against spear. All else being the same, the spear has a large advantage.
George Silver discusses the relative merits of various weapons (and rates the short staff, i.e., about 8 feet, very highly, for example as having the advantage against two opponents with rapier and dagger). Available freely online, first version I found right now was http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/silver/silver5_body.htm. You will notice that Silver didn't like the rapier.
But of course, the character is almost always significantly more skilled than the opponent. Except for the fight at the climax, where the super-skilled enemy leader is faced, but they will lose (often from a won position) through arrogance and under-estimation of their heroic and noble adversary. Knife (or even bare hands) can win against sword in real life, even if objectively inferior as a weapon.
Also, too much realism might also intrude too much on the suspension of disbelief - always easier when what one reads panders to one's preconceptions, and the preconception from a lot of fantasy and RPGs is that swords are superweapons. Not easy.
Posts: 4,393 Location: Northern California
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 4:49 pm
Posts: 1,420 Location: New Orleans
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 5:08 pm
I see it as a burlier battlefield version of a smallsword, like the spadroon, much as a colichmarde is a heavier dueling version, though I admit it's not entirely the same thing since the walloon can cut. All these types seem to overlap to me.
And smallswords could be up to 36"
J
Posts: 4,393 Location: Northern California
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 6:02 pm
Well, we will have to agree to disagree. The only similarity that I see is that they both have plated side-rings. Some Walloons have just a knucklebow in the hilt, though others have a number of sidebranches.
By this reasoning, a hanger is just a robust smallsword
Posts: 1,420 Location: New Orleans
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 6:35 pm
Depends a lot on the hanger... ;)
J
Posts: 103
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 8:03 pm
Well, my wife just looked at all of this, and she reckons that if you are a woman in a man's world, you'd want to avoid "pansy" weapons as well as things that would be too big and cumbersome, and that would make you look a bit silly. I showed her the walloon, the long swords, a couple of different rapiers and so on, and then she caught one look at a messer and said- "Now THAT'S the blade I'd want. That'd make an impression on people." She liked the fact that they are robust weapons without being too big, like a greatsword, and she also pointed out that they are similar to a katana but more flexible in their use.
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 9:48 pm
R Ashby wrote: |
Well, my wife just looked at all of this, and she reckons that if you are a woman in a man's world, you'd want to avoid "pansy" weapons as well as things that would be too big and cumbersome, and that would make you look a bit silly. I showed her the walloon, the long swords, a couple of different rapiers and so on, and then she caught one look at a messer and said- "Now THAT'S the blade I'd want. That'd make an impression on people." She liked the fact that they are robust weapons without being too big, like a greatsword, and she also pointed out that they are similar to a katana but more flexible in their use. |
Have a look at this page from Kult of Athena:
http://www.kultofathena.com/deltin.asp
Lots of swords to look at and here are a few I suggest you look at:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...y+Falchion
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...y+Falchion
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...n+Falchion
And mostly this one that has a lot of style, not too long but very nasty looking as far as a cutting blade:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...an+Dussack
Good hand protection for a good cut and thrust swords:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ron+Pommel
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Back+Sword
Someting from a much earlier period but a good cutter:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...sh+Falcata
Posts: 919
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 11:01 pm
As an author of a fantasy novel you can give her whatever stuff will suit your readers, whose tastes won't be for sure as refined as that of historical sword lovers.
I'm in a reenactment group whose members for the most part come from the fantasy sector, i have learned their tastes well, they will accept everything of the plot is exciting enough.
So I think you could give her the sword that best suits your ... fantasy, regardless of its real world behavior and purpose.
Maybe one of the fantasy swords produced by various good makers, some membres could point you at that stuff.
You could use one of them for the cover of your book as well, with your heroine sporting one of that twisted skull hilted blades many people strangely find so fascinating.
Posts: 103
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 11:45 pm
Bruno Giordan wrote: |
As an author of a fantasy novel you can give her whatever stuff will suit your readers, whose tastes won't be for sure as refined as that of historical sword lovers.
I'm in a reenactment group whose members for the most part come from the fantasy sector, i have learned their tastes well, they will accept everything of the plot is exciting enough.
So I think you could give her the sword that best suits your ... fantasy, regardless of its real world behavior and purpose.
Maybe one of the fantasy swords produced by various good makers, some membres could point you at that stuff.
You could use one of them for the cover of your book as well, with your heroine sporting one of that twisted skull hilted blades many people strangely find so fascinating. |
Good point Bruno!
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Sun 14 Feb, 2010 4:00 am
I just remembered yataghan. It could work well.
Posts: 1,903 Location: Toronto
Sun 14 Feb, 2010 6:30 am
You mentioned that your heroine would be facing various types of armor. Swords would be fine against leather, but the consensus around here lately is that they are of little use against someone fully clad in plate or even mail. So perhaps she should consider mixing things up a bit. For some reason I picture her with a small war hammer or axe in one hand:
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/pole005.html
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/pole006.html
And a Cut-and-thrust sword in the other hand, e.g.
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword036.html
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword192.html
This versatile combination might make for some unique dramatic possibilities as opposed to the usual (and false) notion of a hero with a razer sharp sword cutting down everything in his/her path.
PS - you might want to think about giving her a
shield, helmet, and some armor as well - no matter how good she is, she will get hit. Even Conan needed armor to save his skin (in the original stories, not the comic book).
Posts: 55 Location: Copenhagen
Sun 14 Feb, 2010 6:55 am
I recall a rather amusing scene from a tabletop rpg, where faced with a huge troll the dwarf player swung his pickaxe through the trolls foot and into the floorboards. :p
It allowed a quick escape.
The axe above would fit that.
Posts: 103
Sun 14 Feb, 2010 12:22 pm
J.D. Crawford wrote: |
You mentioned that your heroine would be facing various types of armor. Swords would be fine against leather, but the consensus around here lately is that they are of little use against someone fully clad in plate or even mail. So perhaps she should consider mixing things up a bit. For some reason I picture her with a small war hammer or axe in one hand:
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/pole005.html
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/pole006.html
And a Cut-and-thrust sword in the other hand, e.g.
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword036.html
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword192.html
This versatile combination might make for some unique dramatic possibilities as opposed to the usual (and false) notion of a hero with a razer sharp sword cutting down everything in his/her path.
PS - you might want to think about giving her a shield, helmet, and some armor as well - no matter how good she is, she will get hit. Even Conan needed armor to save his skin (in the original stories, not the comic book). |
This is excellent- I had just thought of this last night. Opens up huge possibilities for the character, and adds a real level of flexibility that I feel a professional soldier would desire. An axe or a dagger could be used in her off hand, or a mace.
From your links- I really like the combination of the knight's riding sword and the axe, especially with the long blade from punching through armour. Good stuff!
Thank you!
Posts: 466
Sun 14 Feb, 2010 2:00 pm
Just as a point of interest, keep in mind duel-wielding weapons, anything, is difficult. There is a reason throughout history most people preferred using a single weapon, and that is that the human mind and body has trouble focusing on more than one thing at once.
I'm not saying that the character shouldn't duel-wield, but I'd have other characters mention how amazing it is that she can do this. (Unless of course everyone duel-wields, in which case I guess it's just the culture and how they do things.)
Posts: 3,637 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Sun 14 Feb, 2010 2:11 pm
Dual wielding is useful for one on one combat where rules are involved (e.g. SCA, duels, etc). In any other situation it will get you killed (e.g. the first time someone shoots an arrow at her). Get a
shield.
Posts: 3,637 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Mon 15 Feb, 2010 2:41 am
No sword can punch through metallic armour. Longswords were used to thrust at areas that were not covered with armour.
Posts: 385 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Mon 15 Feb, 2010 3:18 am
A narrow kniting needle might, but you might want to check out
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_mail.html
Posts: 25 Location: Queensland, Australia
Mon 15 Feb, 2010 4:03 am
Good evening,
Let me start by saying I am too a fantasy writer, and a pedantic one at that. When I am not trying to properly outfit my own bastardised version of some sort of 13th century Roman Legion, I am also having thought experiments with regard to assassin-type characters, and the first trick I learned was this:
Never start with weapons.
Take your assassin-chick, for example. Taking out her target isn't the beginning or the end of her mission. She has to get to the mark, take it out, and get out again. This may mean that it won't be up to her what tool or tools are needed for the job, because that will depend on all the other factors.
She has to get to the target. So, if this means somehow infiltrating a fortress, she might have to adopt a persona or disguise, and getting into the place with an obvious weapon like a katana will make her conspicuous. So, she might have to use something subtle, small or but benign enough upon first inspection that she can get it past any security or nosy individual. Or, she might have improvise with something once inside the fortress, like cutlery.
A good kill is one you can walk away from, not run away from. Spilled blood might give her away, because it is pretty messy stuff, and her target might scream like a cheerleader, so she might opt for something relatively quick and silent, like poisoning, asphyxiation, or the good ol' 'pillow and a hammer' trick.
Then, she has to get out of there, hopefully while chaos and confusion is at it's highest and people in panic might not notice a serving girl slipping through the servant's corridors, out the kitchen and into the cold night.
So, I don't think she would let her proficiency with a weapon or weapons to determine how to take out her target. Therefore, you shouldn't expect yourself to do so either.
Her primary goal is to avoid detection, suspicion and conflict. They are not like soldiers. They will gladly retreat from battle if they can, joyfully run and hide, they will happily stick a stiletto in an unaware neck, and don't give a hoot about engaging in dishonourable combat.
So, rather than wanting to counter someone's weapons with weapons, or countering armour with weapons, and if disguise, deception and evasion is no longer an option, she will use dirty tactics such as throwing dirt or blinding powder in their eyes, maybe get in nice and close to grapple the enemy, break a few digits or noses long enough to find another escape route. To make this job easier, she might just need a simple utilitarian dagger that might not be uncommon for anyone to wander about with.
As for her post-assassin years of adventuring and questing and whatever, I think she only needs to bring those skills with her to look after herself, maybe a shortbow and some arrows for hunting game or whatever.
Her guile, ability to improvise, overcome and adapt, will be as much of a weapon to her as anything.
And beware of the woman with a small dagger, for she may know well how to use it.
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