Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Coat of plates suspension chain Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2 
Author Message
Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 484

PostPosted: Sun 04 Sep, 2011 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's an image with a chain attached to scale http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?s=&...p;p=221687

Adam, that last link of Falkenstein is very interesting. I'm not sure what kind of armour he's wearing under his surcoat. Don't know whether that would be a coat of plates or scale.
View user's profile Send private message
James Moore





Joined: 27 Jan 2011

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sun 04 Sep, 2011 12:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I seem to recall the coat of plates found in Hirschtein Castle, dated to c.1350 has the mounting points for chains on the chest, and at least one intact link.

I sort of recall that the chains are very long links, and quite square sectioned, an d seem to have an attachment bar that links them to the breastplate so they could be detached, and the one for a greathelm would attach via a keyhole-shaped slot and stud, quite similar to that of a modern key-chain lock.
View user's profile Send private message
Adam Bohnstengel




Location: Spring, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 4:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are all the pictures I could find of the Hirschtein coat of plates, and a reproduction made from it. I really wish I could find better/bigger pictures of this, especially the reproduction. It's too hard to see how they attach to the chest, or how they are supposed to attach to the weapons. Oh, and none of those chains look long enough to reach the sword, dagger or helm. What's the 4th one for, a mace?







This guy, and the interperative drawing, is Otto von Orlamünde (1340). I think I just may base my kit off of these. Different color though. I'm also wondering if he has elbow cops or rebraces on under that maille since the vambraces are worn underneath. I wonder what he's supposed to be wearing on his legs as well.


Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the interest of having all the discussion on one topic in one place, I've merged the thread "What's with the crazy chains?" with this one.
Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Adam Bohnstengel




Location: Spring, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 6:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Much appreciated Mr. Arnow! The more I look at that interpreted drawing, the more I like it. I'm definitely going to design my kit around it. I don't guess a surcoat is needed anymore?
Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
View user's profile Send private message
Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 616

PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 5:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam Bohnstengel wrote:
Here are all the pictures I could find of the Hirschtein coat of plates, and a reproduction made from it. I really wish I could find better/bigger pictures of this, especially the reproduction. It's too hard to see how they attach to the chest, or how they are supposed to attach to the weapons. Oh, and none of those chains look long enough to reach the sword, dagger or helm. What's the 4th one for, a mace?


That or a hammer, hard to say since it never shows up in the effigies. Its a good question. Could be to a lunch box for all we know. Razz The sword and dagger connections are clear on numerous effigies. The chain on the far left side of the torso attaches the great helm. When not on the head, the helm rests over the left shoulder. For example:



As to the Hirschstein pair of plates... the sword and dagger chains do seem very short to be practicable. That doesn't mean they are though, just that we don't understand their use as well as we might.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,121

PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 6:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel,

I;m with a lunch box and maybe a wallet.

If anyone does make one of these post how it works out in combat and travel. I attached two chains temporarily and it lasted all of two months before I found it too much of a hassle.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep, 2011 1:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To throw in some more guesses - it looks to me that having the helmet on the back like that may need two chains (one over each shoulder) to stop it bouncing around the side as soon as you move.

Possibly the other two are fixing you to the saddle making it harder to be knocked (backwards) off? Not sure of the pro's/cons of this - maybe one of our resident jousters may have an opinion?
View user's profile Send private message
Adam Bohnstengel




Location: Spring, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep, 2011 2:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I found another source, but not much on it yet. From Osprey publishing, "Knight of Outremer AD1187-1344" (?). It has references to another find, and draws this chicken knight based off of it. Still not quite enough detail, and I don't know how good of a source this is. It does show a good, simple way to secure the chains to the chest though.

I'm trying to find more concrete stuff, and my wife is going to get on some German and Slovene forums and ask around there for me. Hopefully we can get this figured out soon.




Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
View user's profile Send private message
Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Sat 10 Sep, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These chains were mainly germanic, but they were used in England as well.


His chains seem reasonably long for most fighting styles.
But notice he has two chains going to his left side, and his dagger is on his right. They wouldn't both be for the sword, would they?
View user's profile Send private message
Adam Bohnstengel




Location: Spring, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hooray! I finally found some great pictures of how these chains attached, and it makes me feel a little dumb for not realizing it earlier. Heck, I feel dumb for not seeing it earlier! A member here, Nils-Erik Fahlvik, posted a picture and a link in the best thread of them all, the show us your kits and harnesses thread. I don't know how I missed that.

He has three chains on his CoP. In the picture, the left is for the sword, the middle for the dagger, and the right for the helmet. The sword and dagger attach/detach at the CoP, and the helmet attaches/detaches at the helmet. It looks like there is a leather strap around the grips of the sword and dagger that the chain is attached to, and these leather straps are also quickly removeable.






If anyone else has any questions on how the weapon chains work, there are more photos in the links. It even looks like he's fought with them attached, wonder how well that worked. Now I just need to find someone to make me a coat of plates. After I lose about 75 pounds though, school and office work has not been kind to me. Sad

https://picasaweb.google.com/109493801277601815705/1350Tal#
https://picasaweb.google.com/109493801277601815705

Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
View user's profile Send private message
Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,723

PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I looked at these pictures and did a bit of thinking last year when I was making a repro of these chains.

The length of the chains clearly show that they are for temporary suspension of items whilst not being used, ie helm, sword, dagger etc. They would hamper your free movement if left attached.

I see the fitting at the top of the chain as follows:

A loop through the breast plate and decorative 'washer' that secures the top of the chain assembly.
A long single loop/link that passes through this loop and secures (via a pivot) to a tube.
A rod passes through this tube with a decorative finial fixed so the rod/tube forms a swivel assembly
Chain is fixed to the swivel assembly going down to a T bar.
I see no method of detachment for the chain at the breast plate end.

Adam Bohnstengel wrote
Quote:
Hooray! I finally found some great pictures of how these chains attached, and it makes me feel a little dumb for not realizing it earlier. Heck, I feel dumb for not seeing it earlier! A member here, Nils-Erik Fahlvik, posted a picture and a link in the best thread of them all, the show us your kits and harnesses thread. I don't know how I missed that.



I have to disagree with this interpretation based onwhat I see in the pictures shown here

I have never examined one of these in the flesh but this is how I see the pictures. I suspect my description is not very clear so I will try to do a sketch and post it up tomorrow.

Tod [/quote]

www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
www.instagram.com/todsworkshop
https://www.facebook.com/TodsWorkshop
www.youtube.com/user/todsstuff1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,723

PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A sketch of how I interpret the top swivel assembly


 Attachment: 139.6 KB
036.jpg


www.todsworkshop.com
www.todcutler.com
www.instagram.com/todsworkshop
https://www.facebook.com/TodsWorkshop
www.youtube.com/user/todsstuff1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Adam Bohnstengel




Location: Spring, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep, 2011 3:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo, that is a great drawing! Thank you!

In my post, I was only referring to Nils-Erik Fahlvik's interpretation and construction of a CoP with chains; not necessarily the Hirschtein coat. It seemed to me to be a good, viable method, and, if nothing else, that's how the other end of the chain will attach to the weapons. Still a win for me! I want to say again, that sketch of how the Hirschtein coat works is excellent.

So.............you've made a CoP like this with the chains before, have you? Do you have any pictures? Are you willing to do it again? (after I lose some weight!)

Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Burger




Location: United States
Joined: 05 Jul 2013

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 08 Jun, 2015 4:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry to respond to an old post, but I guess it beats starting another thread to this.

Is anyone out there making these chains and fittings for sale? It's quite hard to google for this, put "chain" and "armor" or "chain" and "14th century" together in the same search, and there is a lot of hits on maile, even if one tries to eliminate that from results. That said, I've tried hard enough that at best this stuff isn't common. Perhaps somebody has sorted this out using easy to find hardware?

Thanks,

Steve
View user's profile Send private message
Timm Radt




Location: Germany
Joined: 12 Sep 2011

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon 08 Jun, 2015 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Stephen,

I know that Christian Wiedner and Albert Collins (aka via armorari) have made chains like these. But only as a part of a coat of plates. But I think at least Christian Wiedner would also make only the chains. Take a look here:

http://www.plattnerei-wiedner.de/produkt_details.php?prodid=49

http://www.plattnerei-wiedner.de/produkt_details.php?prodid=47

http://www.plattnerei-wiedner.de/produkt_details.php?prodid=144

By the way : One can find such chains also in France – see attached an effigy from Flavacourt in Northern France

Cheers, Timm



 Attachment: 54.61 KB
chantem_flavacourt.jpg

View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Coat of plates suspension chain
Page 2 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum