Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > John Smith's Falchion Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 10:37 am    Post subject: John Smith's Falchion         Reply with quote

For you fans of early colonial-era arms, here's a contemporary illustration of John Smith's adventures in Virginia. I love this falchion, but haven't seen anything similar in museums. The falchion shown in the photo from the myArmoury.com albums is as close as I've seen. Has anybody seen this weapon?--clipped point, wide fuller, ball pommel, simple recurved quillons?
I'd love to see a flesh & blood example of this type. By the way, archaeologist Ivor Noel Hume has suggested that Smith might have supervised the illustrations for his writing. So, his weapon might be accurately rendered here.



 Attachment: 76.26 KB
smith.gif


 Attachment: 30.34 KB
hand.jpg


 Attachment: 58.48 KB
file.jpg


-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 11:05 am    Post subject: Smith's Falchion         Reply with quote

Gee, I didn't realize that this John Smith was a Texan! ;o)

Seriously though, there are lots of interesting illustrations from the 17th and early 18th Centuries showing clip-point swords of this type, such as the engravings from Daniel Defoe's book on pirates "History of the most notorious Pyrates" including one of Ned Teach (Blackbeard) himself. Strange that such a beast would be so common in illustrations but so rare in collections: perhaps it became a 'literary figure of speech" as it were, engraver's shorthand for "this is a sword for doing close, ugly work" or some such. Seems as though Thomas Tew's Jolly Roger had such a sword emblazoned on it too.

At any rate, this is something that has intrigued me as well for some time, perhaps someone has some solid information on these rather rare beasts.

Gordon Frye

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Exactly! Peterson's Arms & Armor of Colonial America shows two such pirate illustrations as well as the badly corroded remains of an excavated example of the weapon type they're shown holding. That weapon is of the more familiar shell-guard form, but is otherwise very similar to Smith's. The blades of those weapons might not be quite as wide as Smith's falchion. I haven't seen much light shed on the difference, if any, between a cutlass, hanger or falchion of the era in question. E.B. Erickson and I were comiserating last week about the dearth of sword replicas for this period. Rapiers abound, of course. But where are the military/utilitarian cutting swords of 1600-1700? MRL's Badelaire and German Falchion are good candidates for DIY updating to 17th c. form (especially the Badelaire--see below). Alchem sells a 1.75" steel ball pommel for around $16. Might be too small for that weapon, though.


 Attachment: 20.99 KB
mrl1510.jpg


-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Russ Mitchell




Location: Irving, TX
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 1:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Grab a biography on Smith: you'll be surprised at how much use he got out of choppers like that...
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Him and many other early colonists! Makes sense. Cheap, sturdy, short--the sword, I mean, not Smith (although....). Frankly, I don't quite understand why rapiers were so popular in the early colonies, and why so few falchions/hangers/cutlasses have turned up in the archaeological record. Maybe they were so sturdy that they continued in use and gradually were honed down to nothing, shortened or reshaped for agricultural use or butchery. Those colonists were resourceful recyclers when they chose to be. I'm bursting to say more on this subject but can't at the moment.....
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 2:33 pm    Post subject: Choppers and Falchions         Reply with quote

Sean, I suspect that you are on the money with the idea that the choppers like Smith's were simply used and reused until there just wasn't anything left of them. As a rancher friend of mine said, if something doesn't live at least three different lives on the ranch, it was a bad investment (he was speaking of shotgun barrels turned into fence-posts, and about to be turned into something else). I should think that the falchions would make dandy scythes, frankly. Or plowshares for that matter.

It really seems as though such short swords were popular throughout the period from the late Middle Ages through to the end of cold steel as a useful battlefield implement. There is an interesting wood-cut from around 1600 showing muskets and swords being issued out to Dutch troops after their being listed and attested. Along with the rapiers, there are also large numbers of what I should refer to as Dusack's shown too. Makes perfect sense to me, actually, since using a rapier takes a certain amount of training and skill, while a chopper is just what it is, here, go to work! Just like the cutlass of the later period, really.

Could it be that the reason more rapier parts are seen in dumps is that they were more likely to be tossed into them, where as the shorter weapons could find other uses? Interesting points to discuss...

Gordon Frye

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Roy K.





Joined: 08 May 2004

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe the falchions all got used up as they would make good cane knives, machetes, kindling cutters, froes, and kids toys. They're also better weapons for fighting Indians. The rapiers probably just sat in a corner until some good story about grandpa being heroic got attached to them.
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Tucker




Location: Cotonou, Benin
Joined: 22 Feb 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was recently in west Africa, where (once you get out into the country) you see machetes everywhere. although most of them seem to start life as with same (now mass-produced) wide blade about a foot and a half or more long, many of them were worn down to the size of steak knives and still being used for everything from butching livestock to chopping open coconuts. I also read Chinua Achebe's great book "Things Fall Apart" which is set in what is now Nigeria around the time white men started to make contact with inland tribespeople. although the book is by no means a historical work, it describes the machete as a weapon and a tool. men wear it to war and to the field. although I got off subject a little there, I think the west african example parallels the use of short, wide, curved blades as versatile tools and effective weapons.
Cheers
Dan
View user's profile Send private message
William Goodwin




Location: Roanoke,Va
Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 1,001

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 6:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Sean Flynt"] . E.B. Erickson and I were comiserating last week about the dearth of sword replicas for this period. Rapiers abound, of course. But where are the military/utilitarian cutting swords of 1600-1700? MRL's Badelaire and German Falchion are good candidates for DIY updating to 17th c. form quote]


Hey Sean,

Mortuary's,proto-mortuary's,& more mortuary's! Sorry, couldn't help myself there Agreed, I'd also love to see more replica's of this time period. And as far as the Falchion goes, Von Sussen Enterprises makes model similar to the MRL, quillons and pommel are a bit different. I guess some hangers & the schiavona's can be put into this time zone.

Bill
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
David R. Glier





Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Even *modern* militaries are begining to come around to the idea of well-made ancient weapons.
Rangers, as many of you have no doubt heard, have been recently issued tomahawks as part of their personal kits, after word of their extreme usefulness filtered back through the command chain. Army brass is still skeptical, but the troops are enthusiastic.
Machetes have long been recognized as useful tools and weapons, but are often poorly balanced and have bad blade geometry -the soldiers just say they're hard to use. Yet, an entire Special Forces team ordered Cold Steel Kukris and sent back grateful reviews about their utility. Ditch the machete, design a falchion. I've used both, and I'll tell you which one is more useful in a heartbeat! Every solder or marine that I've convinced to try one agrees with me immediately. Wink
View user's profile Send private message
Allen Johnson





Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Reading list: 29 books

Posts: 198

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep, 2004 9:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really love the look of MRL's thorpe falchion and would love to see it reproduced by someone of quality. The Lutel one is ok. Albions upcoming one is sexy too but $1,000 is more than I can justify at this point.
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Thu 09 Sep, 2004 5:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The MRL falchion may be better than you'd think. If you haven't already seen my review of this replica, it's here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/review_mrl_falc.html

It's good to see that so many folks are interested in 17th c. edged weapons. Maybe somebody out there is listening!

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Zach Stambaugh





Joined: 08 Mar 2004

Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu 09 Sep, 2004 2:28 pm    Post subject: don't knock the 'chetes         Reply with quote

David R. Glier wrote:
Even *modern* militaries are begining to come around to the idea of well-made ancient weapons.
Rangers, as many of you have no doubt heard, have been recently issued tomahawks as part of their personal kits, after word of their extreme usefulness filtered back through the command chain. Army brass is still skeptical, but the troops are enthusiastic.
Machetes have long been recognized as useful tools and weapons, but are often poorly balanced and have bad blade geometry -the soldiers just say they're hard to use. Yet, an entire Special Forces team ordered Cold Steel Kukris and sent back grateful reviews about their utility. Ditch the machete, design a falchion. I've used both, and I'll tell you which one is more useful in a heartbeat! Every solder or marine that I've convinced to try one agrees with me immediately. Wink


um, I agree that a lot of machetes are poorly made and balanced. however I have used a lot of them and found that two that look nearly identical can perform very differently. (the good ones are thin, springy and should reach to your toe in a relaxed stance, their edge can be improved with a quick belt sanding. the crappy ones are short stiff and thick. transmits force to hand rather than target) their edge geometry is better than a sword for their purpose. i have found that i can usually chop a tree down quicker with a machete than with an axe or a hatchet. the kukri behaves more like a clumsy hatchet than a slashy cutter. too short and too heavy. it is primarily shaped that way from tradition.

I would love to see more falcheons, schweitsersabels sp?, hangers, and cutlasses. they seem more of an everyman's sword. (as someone noted earlier. their techniques are self explanatory.) furthermore they are good for more than just hacking up peoples in your way. you can see why tfalcheons and cutlasses were used on ships so much. they were short. too much rigging and crew and stuff in the way on a ship for stuff like zweihanders. they were easy. they cut well. in a naval fight you have to cutt of grapple lines, trialing spars and rigging, and hands with jewelry. also everyghing is lurching around so much that you can't afford to be fancy. you just slash, stab and move on before the deck gets too slippery.

also does any one have any pics of those arab type falcheons that often get called scimitars?or the correct name perhaps? (the big slave guy who gets killed has one in the movie Hidalgo)

It is better to be over careful a hundred times than dead once. --- Mark Twain (give or take a slight misquote)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Sat 11 Sep, 2004 10:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had a similar experience to Dan Tucker's when I was in Ghana several years ago. It wasn't unusual to see large kitchen knives that had been ground from machetes. There origins were evident in the stamped grooves on the blade (too shallow to call fullers) and in their grips. Here machetes were such a staple that all large knives seemed to have been ground from old machetes. The fact that machetes are called cutlasses there and in India supports the theory that falchions were often used up as wood knives.

As to Zach's observations on machetes and kukris, I have found kukris too be every bit as varied in there form and performance as machetes if not more so. Some are useless while others are among the most efficient choppers I have ever encountered. The original Blackjack/Reinhardt kukri and AC's Assam Rifles kukris fit the latter category.
View user's profile Send private message
Joel Chesser




Location: Oklahoma
Joined: 23 Oct 2003

Posts: 724

PostPosted: Sun 12 Sep, 2004 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: John Smith's Falchion         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Has anybody seen this weapon?--clipped point, wide fuller, ball pommel, simple recurved quillons?


I found this today on the Del Tin WEb site, it looks pretty similar, recurved quillons,what might be a ball pumel, a little hard to tell though, and clip point. I Thought you might be intrested.



 Attachment: 5.57 KB
5131.jpg


..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2004 6:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mmmm...love the hilt. Hate the blade. Looks like the pommel is discoidal. That may actually be what we're looking at in the Smith illustration. Thanks for the image!
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional



Location: Thailand
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 455

PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2004 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ever since Sean posted it last week, the engraving of Smith's falchion has been ringing faint bells, and I think I remember where I saw something similar.

In the Wallace collection catalogs, they have a couple of Italian falchions/sabers from the early 1600s that are close to what is shown in the engraving. If I remember correctly, one has a rounded pommel with a spiral design and countercurved quillons, but I don't recall a clipped point to the blade.

Anyone have a copy of the catalogs handy to check it out?

--ElJay
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2004 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very interesting...I wondered if it might have been something he picked up on the Continent.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Mon 13 Sep, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

E.B. Erickson wrote:
Ever since Sean posted it last week, the engraving of Smith's falchion has been ringing faint bells, and I think I remember where I saw something similar.

In the Wallace collection catalogs, they have a couple of Italian falchions/sabers from the early 1600s that are close to what is shown in the engraving. If I remember correctly, one has a rounded pommel with a spiral design and countercurved quillons, but I don't recall a clipped point to the blade.

Anyone have a copy of the catalogs handy to check it out?

--ElJay


Wallace catalog Vol II

Plate 110, item A710: This is the Medici Falchion that A&A has replicated. Countercurved guard, lions head pommel, cliped point.

Plate 130, item A717: 17th century, blade inscribed EDWARDUS PRINS ANGLIE, clipped point, downward curving guard with a semi-knucklebow, knightshead pommel

Plate 131, item A712: Italian 16th-17th centuries. Countercurved guard, semi-birdshead pommel with a spiral design, clipped point with a pronounced false edge (I think this is the one you're refering to Eljay).

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional



Location: Thailand
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 455

PostPosted: Tue 14 Sep, 2004 5:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Patrick,
I think you've got it! Any chance of a scan?

--ElJay
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > John Smith's Falchion
Page 1 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum