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J.D. Crawford
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 Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2011 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: |
Did you ever get your customs from them? |
The custom order did not work out. Eyal did build a sword (a Scottish Halflang based on a famous sword in Glasgow), but neither of us was happy with the result. I was not charged. I think he may have used the pommel design in another sword.
At a later date Eyal did some customization work for me, at no cost for labor, and we ended on friendly terms.
-JD
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 07 Nov, 2011 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew Howe wrote: | You show a picture for Darksword but a drawing for Albion? I sense a good deal of bias in this.
Too be honest, I really don't see it as economically responsible to use an Albion for WMA when you can potentially break it. They are just too expensive to be anything but display swords, but at that point I see it as somewhat pointless to go to such lengths for accurate weight. |
I'd hesitate suggesting bias when this is much more likely to be just a difference of opinion and means. Whether an Albion or whatever is too expensive to use is largely influenced by your current financial means. I put much money's worth of bicycle on the ground yesterday. Really sucked and I still hurt from it but I'm going to use it again today. I know wreck happen so I avoid buying more bicycle than I can stand wrecking. Ditto for skis. Ditto for swords.
There are plenty of people who think nothing of buying and racing $10K bicycles, but to me that's insane. However I recognize that I think that way only because I just cannot afford that kind of bike. I sure would do the same thing if I could afford it and I think the same thing applies to swords. 
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Tue 08 Nov, 2011 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew Howe wrote: |
You show a picture for Darksword but a drawing for Albion? I sense a good deal of bias in this.
Too be honest, I really don't see it as economically responsible to use an Albion for WMA when you can potentially break it. They are just too expensive to be anything but display swords, but at that point I see it as somewhat pointless to go to such lengths for accurate weight. |
Initial cost is only a fraction of the story. Yes, the albion maestro sword costs a couple hundred more then the DSA...but how long will either sword last with intended use? Will the handles fall off? Parts become loose? How long you can use a tool (and yes a practice sword is a tool) is also very important. You can get a cheap chinese made zinc alloy wrench set for 10 bucks. Or an all steel forged set for 100. The first will last you a year or less, the second a lifetime...or more. So which one is the better value? Course if you can't afford the initial cost, it's all a moot point.
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Pierre T.
Location: Ottawa, Canada Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Tue 08 Nov, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | Andrew Howe wrote: |
You show a picture for Darksword but a drawing for Albion? I sense a good deal of bias in this.
Too be honest, I really don't see it as economically responsible to use an Albion for WMA when you can potentially break it. They are just too expensive to be anything but display swords, but at that point I see it as somewhat pointless to go to such lengths for accurate weight. |
Initial cost is only a fraction of the story. Yes, the albion maestro sword costs a couple hundred more then the DSA...but how long will either sword last with intended use? Will the handles fall off? Parts become loose? How long you can use a tool (and yes a practice sword is a tool) is also very important. You can get a cheap chinese made zinc alloy wrench set for 10 bucks. Or an all steel forged set for 100. The first will last you a year or less, the second a lifetime...or more. So which one is the better value? Course if you can't afford the initial cost, it's all a moot point. |
The cost of the sword, or it's "value" (ie durability, quality etc) are very important, but they are secondary to the primary question - are DSA weapons suitable for sparing? DSA swords could last a thousand years and cost 5 bucks, if they aren't safe for sparing - and in my opinion, they aren't (with one possible exception) - it doesn't matter, they aren't suitable for the task at hand.
This doesn't mean that DSA swords are "bad" - just that they weren't (again, with one exception that I know of) designed for sparring.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Pierre T. wrote: | | P. Cha wrote: | | Andrew Howe wrote: |
You show a picture for Darksword but a drawing for Albion? I sense a good deal of bias in this.
Too be honest, I really don't see it as economically responsible to use an Albion for WMA when you can potentially break it. They are just too expensive to be anything but display swords, but at that point I see it as somewhat pointless to go to such lengths for accurate weight. |
Initial cost is only a fraction of the story. Yes, the albion maestro sword costs a couple hundred more then the DSA...but how long will either sword last with intended use? Will the handles fall off? Parts become loose? How long you can use a tool (and yes a practice sword is a tool) is also very important. You can get a cheap chinese made zinc alloy wrench set for 10 bucks. Or an all steel forged set for 100. The first will last you a year or less, the second a lifetime...or more. So which one is the better value? Course if you can't afford the initial cost, it's all a moot point. |
The cost of the sword, or it's "value" (ie durability, quality etc) are very important, but they are secondary to the primary question - are DSA weapons suitable for sparing? DSA swords could last a thousand years and cost 5 bucks, if they aren't safe for sparing - and in my opinion, they aren't (with one possible exception) - it doesn't matter, they aren't suitable for the task at hand.
This doesn't mean that DSA swords are "bad" - just that they weren't (again, with one exception that I know of) designed for sparring. |
Okay there is that as well. Yes I have been quite adamant that DSA swords (and yes there is that one viking practice sword that maybe the exception) are not safe for sparring purposes. I guess it's even worse then getting that 10 dollar wrench set...it's like getting a 10 dollar screw driver set when you need a wrench set I guess :P . My previous comment was more focused on just the quality aspect...and that quality is a part of what makes something a good value and not just cheap.
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Steven Janus
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Sat 12 Nov, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: |
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I will agree with Pcha that for the most part because their swords have pointed tips they are not good for sparring. though you could always round that off but at that point it may be better to get a blunt sparring sword. To the second point about the weight, they are now made from 3/16ths stock instead of 1/4 inch. They are not that bulky or heavy as they were in years past, they make good back yard cutters once sharpened and fun customization projects. For the money, they are a good deal for a North American make at that price range with a scabbard it is hard to beat and even the scabbards now are fairly good unlike in the past. I have owned several Darkswords and sold several.
Some were so so others were pretty good after a fair amount of handy work. I've seen and handled Windlass at Renfaires and DSA is on par and better in many cases. Some of their products are flops and use pot metal hilt components but there are many good models they make that are worth owning as beater backyard cutter's / project swords like their 1339:14th C. Two Handed Sword (which I own and after sharpening and flattening out the diamond cross section the blade only weighs 3.4 pounds and is 44 inches in overall length), 306 - The Medieval Knight (had handled a new one that I did some work on, was 2.4 pounds got it down to 2.2 pounds or so), 1354: 14th C Medieval Sword (just under 3 pounds looks like a good XIV and probably will order one someday), among others. On a price point Valiant Armory is better if you want a lighter dedicated cutter but the DSA's with some work make a good heavy but still fair handling back yard cutting sword.
Newbie Sword collector
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Sat 12 Nov, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: Value when you have to make the sword a project! |
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How good a value is it if you've got to modify it to get something you like? I suspect the value is only there for you because you enjoy doing the work. In fact I'd guess that you discount, or just do not count the value of your labor at all, into the cost of the sword! If you figure your hourly wage rate, calculate how many hours you put into the project, and then add that to the cost of the sword, what does the cost come to for one of these value pieces? Is it still a good value at that price point? Is it still a good value for somebody who enjoys the project experience less than you do? :-)
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Sun 13 Nov, 2011 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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William Swiger
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| Posted: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 12:06 am Post subject: |
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I have owned a few DSA swords over the last few years to include a couple of their more recent items. As a company, I feel they are moving in the right direction towards making a better product, but they are not there yet.
I have spent countless hours working on them to make a half decent sword. The blades are roughly sharpened if you order the option and a killer to sharpen if ordered without the sharpening service. Either way, you still spend hours trying to work the edges and even more to clean it up. All the blades were not finished well with uneven and wavy fullers. Taper is very bad.
I will not buy another as my time is better spent doing something else. I enjoy redoing the grips on some of my swords and similar type upgrades but if you order a sword from any manufactuer, you should at least expect it to look good and perform right out of the box for its type. You should not have to expend hours just to make it a sub-standard performer.
Again, I think DSA is moving in the right direction, but they are not there yet and still rank below most Windlass offerings at present time.
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Steven Janus
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Value when you have to make the sword a project! |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | How good a value is it if you've got to modify it to get something you like? I suspect the value is only there for you because you enjoy doing the work. In fact I'd guess that you discount, or just do not count the value of your labor at all, into the cost of the sword! If you figure your hourly wage rate, calculate how many hours you put into the project, and then add that to the cost of the sword, what does the cost come to for one of these value pieces? Is it still a good value at that price point? Is it still a good value for somebody who enjoys the project experience less than you do? :-) |
Well considering I get a leather covered wood scabbard with belt and blade for $400 where the sword just needs some finishing it's a pretty good value compared to an Atrim that's $375-$450 for the sword alone and another $300-$400 for the scabbard. I've already made the capital investment into a 1x30 belt sander and 220 grit 1x30 belts aren't that expensive. If I had skill in scabbard making I'd probably buy an Atrim or Albion and build my own scabbard but alas I don't so I buy an almost finished Darksword and spend a few days regrinding it. In the past when they were made out of 1/4 inch stock they took a long time but the last sword I bought from them was 3/16ths took a three weeks working on the weekends on and off to complete. Then again I've owned a Hanwei Tinker Norman and it was very dull outside the box as well. I'm very happy with their newer product line, for the record I've seen a number of Windlass swords with stray fullers as well. It doesn't bother me that much at the price point as long as it isn't glaringly obvious.
BTW I have owned Atrims and do own two Albions. The Atrim had heat treat issues but the Albions were spot on but after the scabbard construction and everything ran well over $1000.
Newbie Sword collector
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not really sure you answered my question. If you don't value the project experience itself, and cost your time into your value investment at your normal hourly earning rate, what does the cost for one of your Darksword projects come to? I'm fairly confident that for me, other options actually represent a better value because my time is worth more to me that the fun of the project. That varies by person, but I think it should be considered before declaring the value universally
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Steven Janus
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | I'm not really sure you answered my question. If you don't value the project experience itself, and cost your time into your value investment at your normal hourly earning rate, what does the cost for one of your Darksword projects come to? I'm fairly confident that for me, other options actually represent a better value because my time is worth more to me that the fun of the project. That varies by person, but I think it should be considered before declaring the value universally |
Only about a $100 or so for all the sand paper, files, and sanding stones but I already have all the equipment. It's good to have these items when you own swords since the edges do need to be resharpened on occasion. I could say the same thing about anyone else who values doing customization. If you want to spend a lot of money and have someone else do all the work for you then so be it but DSA swords are good on a budget and are better than Windlass and Hanwei in certain ways and in other's they're not. I'm very happy with my 1339 XIIIA after I belt sanded it, using a water spray bottle in between passes to keep heat from building up. It cuts well and handles appropriately for a sword its size. I've even ordered another DSA, the Messer and though I know it's not historically accurate it's very hard to beat what it offers at the price point. I don't have one gran to drop on an Albion Soldat though I'm sure it is very nice. DSA has issues like every other value brand, that's why they're value brands.
Newbie Sword collector
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Pierre T.
Location: Ottawa, Canada Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure that it would be quite possible to round off the tip, but making the blade less stiff would be rather tricky...
... but with enough work, it could be done. But then... why bother? Why not buy a sword that was designed as a sparring weapon from the get go, and use the DSA sword for what it was intended (a backyard beater)?
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Colt Reeves
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| Posted: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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The OP specifically states "without modification"...
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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Austin D.G. Hill
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| Posted: Mon 14 Nov, 2011 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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although they do weigh a lot, i looked on KOA and found that they weighed the same and sometimes less than similar Del Tin swords. now it is obvious that Del Tins are probably better made and definitely better balanced , yet they are more expensive and DSA does seem to be i bit more durable.
AUSTIN DANIEL GLENN HILL
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Nathan Quarantillo
Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Mon 14 Nov, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'll put in my 2 cents, as I own a Norman model from Darksword.
I rather like the thing. I wouldn't use it to spar, as it has a point, but I really do like the sword.
The scabbard it came with was also pretty awesome for the cost. The sword is also quite attractive IMO.
BTW the thing is tough as adamamtium nails.
I find that while it is heavy, it does track rather well in the cut and thrust.
I have seen Darksword models evolve, and I think they are definatly on the right track.
They are highly responsive, in the past few years peening almost all of their models and increasing their scabbard quality tenfold. Their designs have also gotten more historic over time generally, with admittance of the fantasy models of course.
BTW, one can say what you will about initial costs and investments, I couldn't shell out a couple hundred dollars more for the cheapest Albion or an Atrim. For a lot of people, a couple hundred dollars isn't something they could just drop out at whim.
"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 14 Nov, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Cost and value are both functions of individual frame of reference. Simply put, cost and value are variables, not universal fixed constants. Interestingly, statements about cost and value always seem to be absolute for some reason.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Tue 15 Nov, 2011 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Quarantillo wrote: | | BTW, one can say what you will about initial costs and investments, I couldn't shell out a couple hundred dollars more for the cheapest Albion or an Atrim. For a lot of people, a couple hundred dollars isn't something they could just drop out at whim. |
The cost factor is completely fair. However, I've personally found many other options to be just as good, if not better, than Darksword in a similar price range. Moreso, I'm not a fan of their business ethics, which makes me even more inclined to shop elsewhere (and to point other people elsewhere).
But ignoring even those factors -- If your goal is to have something that is shaped like a sword and can wail away on armor, I suppose Darksword can fit the bill. If your goal is learn actual martial arts as they were practiced by the people who actually did this for real, I don't recommend Darksword at all.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Fri 25 Nov, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | Cost and value are both functions of individual frame of reference. Simply put, cost and value are variables, not universal fixed constants. Interestingly, statements about cost and value always seem to be absolute for some reason. |
Just a quibble...cost isn't subjective, but objective and not a function of the individual (A sword costs X dollars from Y store no matter who you are...okay okay barring you knew the owner from kindergarden of course). Value however totally is subjective. If you feel that the DSA is a good value, then no matter what anyone else says, it's a good value to YOU. Course pointing out things you may not have considered in your value assessment is still totally fair game.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Fri 25 Nov, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Quarantillo wrote: | | BTW, one can say what you will about initial costs and investments, I couldn't shell out a couple hundred dollars more for the cheapest Albion or an Atrim. For a lot of people, a couple hundred dollars isn't something they could just drop out at whim. |
So do you own one sword and never plan to get a second? There is a differance between I can NEVER save up a couple hundred extra and I can't do so because I want a sword now. What I see more often then not is people get a lot of these cheap swords (hell I have a lot of these cheap swords) and then make statements of well I can never afford a gus blade or an albion. Well if you just saved up twice as long, instead of 2 DSA you can have 1 albion.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Fri 25 Nov, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| P. Cha wrote: | | Joe Fults wrote: | | Cost and value are both functions of individual frame of reference. Simply put, cost and value are variables, not universal fixed constants. Interestingly, statements about cost and value always seem to be absolute for some reason. |
Just a quibble...cost isn't subjective, but objective and not a function of the individual (A sword costs X dollars from Y store no matter who you are...okay okay barring you knew the owner from kindergarden of course). Value however totally is subjective. If you feel that the DSA is a good value, then no matter what anyone else says, it's a good value to YOU. Course pointing out things you may not have considered in your value assessment is still totally fair game. |
Don't agree with you for a number of reasons but that's just my opinion.  Although in truth it would probably have been better to say "perception of cost" rather than "cost" in my original post. My intended point being that what is perceived as costly to somebody and what is valuable, is not going to be quite the same for any other person. However, when talking about these things posters seem to assume that everyone else operates from the same frame of reference. I find that interesting.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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