Posts: 805 Location: new orleans
Sat 19 Nov, 2011 6:38 am
| William P wrote: |
well if you want to be super technical. the thing which seperates the tachi from the katana are how its worn
'tachi, worn edge facing downward (like virtually every other sabre) and the scabbard suspended from the bely with a system of loops and cords, the names of which i dont know
the katana was a sword thrust through the belt, normally with the edge facing upwards.
since there are katana that are mounted very similarly to tachi. but the are just thrust through the belt and not hung from it.
the other part of the definition is that of the length of the weapon. since both tanto and shoto (this means short sword, includes both wakizashi and kodachi) were worn thrust through the belt with the edge up, but are not classified as katana/ daito,
for those who dont already know this, japanese blades are classified according to BLADE length (interesting since i dont think it includes the handle). |
Actually a tachi from the proper era is completely different than what we now call a katana. You are confusing tachi mountings with the tachi sword blade. While it is true that any Japanese sword can and has been worn in tachi style, that is with the blade facing down and suspended in two places as opposed to being worn thrust through a belt with the blade facing up, just being worn tachi style does not make a sword a "true" tachi, the blade has to be from the correct period of time, what we now call a katana did not exist at one time and was developed much later than the tachi.
Here is a very technical discussion on this very subject from the nihonto forum.
http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11152
As for sword blade lengths, it was not until the Edo period that katana and wakizashi blade lengths were officially established, when tachi and lamellar armor were being used there were no official blade lengths as far as I know.
Posts: 805 Location: new orleans
Sat 19 Nov, 2011 7:19 pm
| William P wrote: |
btw, the nagamaki, is a katana length blade with a handle of nearly equal length, or possibly longer, naginata have much longer handles and usually shorter blades. |
"I will now give you a lecture on naginata blades. As is clear in the original word "nagi-gatana" once used to call what is now named naginata, which is a corrupted as well as abbreviated way of pronouncing nagi-gatana, the primary use of the type of blades presently called naginata was to "mow-down" the enemy. Stories and drawings depicting naginata in actual use began to appear in literature written around the time of two successive battles between the Genji and the Heike starting 1056.
More tales involving war heros' distinguished military services accomplished by use of naginata followed in war stories such as "Hogen and Heiji no Ran Monogatari" and "Genpei no Seisuiki".
However, it now seems more appropriate to consider that naginata examples extant to date are all works from the mid Kamakura onward. To mention very old examples that I have come across, there are works of Ichimonji KORESUKE, Osafune NAGAMITSU, KAGEMITSU, Yoshioka Ichimonji SUKEMITSU, Fukuoka ICHIMONJI, Rai KUNITOSHI, Taema in Yamato, NORISHIGE in Etchu, Miike in Chikugo, and so on. The common characteristics of these naginata works lie in their sizes measuring around 51.5cm - 54.5cm in blade length and the overall modest widths, as well as the shape consisting of fairly uniform widths maintained toward the tip and the modest sori.
With the turn of the Nanbokucho period, however, enormously long o-naginata, just like the o-dachi of the same period, came into being. Their lengths measured as long as 75.75cm - 78.8cm. The shape consisted of wide mihaba, exaggerated width in the upper portion, and fairly marked sori; but they were made very thin in kasane, as in the case of the contemporary o-dachi works, therefore keeping a good balance on the whole. The most important thing to be noted here, however, is the edge curve of the point which is rather straight (fukura kareru). This has an effect in making the blade look very sharp, but a more important purpose of taking such a shape in terms of practical merits must have been the greatest possible cutdown in weights. It is also true and another important point to be noted of the naginata of Nanbokucho days that some of them were considerably smaller in overall sizes but their shapes and styles as a whole were perfectly homologous to those of o-naginata.
It should be mentioned in this connection that the naginata in Muromachi days was made to have a size approximately inbetween the Kamakura and the Nanbokucho works. In terms of saki-haba and sakisori, however, the Muromachi work was made to have far more exaggerated characteristics than the work of previous periods and such an exaggerated shape is often described as having a point like a thrown-back head. I think it is a pretty good statement describing the appearence of sori in Muromachi blades. Further in the Muromachi period, naginata blades attained the all-time-high popularity and, therefore, more works remain to date from this period.
On the other hand, it is also true that naginata were obviously considered minor, informal weapons to be used in battlefields, therefore, disposables when compared with tachi and other forms of blades. This is probably why there are no very old naginata examples extant from Heian and early Kamakura days. It was probably in the mid Kamakura period that naginata of better quality began to be produced, and especially in the Nanbokucho period that outstanding naginata were produced in large numbers. Nevertheless the number of extant works is very small. This is because a great many of them have been largely shortened in later days and further re-formed into uchigatana or wakizashi styles which were attainable by cutting off the back of the point. These re-formed blades have been called either nagamaki-naoshi or naginata-naoshi.I should think it is more appropriate to call them naginata-naoshi.
Now, on the relationship between nagamaki and naginata. It is likely the similarity existing between aikuchi and tanto: the term nagamaki derived from a certain style of koshirae to fit in naginata blades, and referred to the long (nagai) hilt finished in hirumaki style (narrowly spaced notches). A reference to the "naginata in nagamaki style" can be found in war tales such as "Heike Monogatari" and gives evidence to the validity of the above theory. Therefore nagamaki should properly be called naginata.
Further there has long been an understanding that naginata refers only to those blades without yokote and that those formed with the yokote should be classified as nagamaki. This also is quite erroneous.
It should be added that a considerable number of naginata were made in early parts of the Shinto period. They took a form most closely resembling the style of Nanbokucho naginata.
Hardly any truly excellent naginata were made in mid Edo days, but there were some made almost solely for decorative purpose. With the turn of the Shin-shinto period, the form of the naginata began taking large sizes."
Sato KANZAN (in English Token Bijutsu no.10)
Let's leave it at that. Nobody here is qualified to question KANZAN's authority unless he's determined to make a fool out of himself.
| Quote: |
| Therefore nagamaki should properly be called naginata. |
From the nihonto forum... http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?...p;start=90
Posts: 1,524 Location: Sydney, Australia
Sun 20 Nov, 2011 2:27 am
....ok, fair enough.. conceeding on both counts.
Posts: 2,121 Location: Northern Utah
Sun 20 Nov, 2011 5:37 am
Is there a reputable site that covers the development of Japanese armour or any good books? A few of my students last term were interested and I found a few but most were relatively ancient.
RPM
Posts: 805 Location: new orleans
Sun 20 Nov, 2011 6:35 am
| Randall Moffett wrote: |
Is there a reputable site that covers the development of Japanese armour or any good books? A few of my students last term were interested and I found a few but most were relatively ancient.
RPM |
Randal, Anthony Bryant's web site while not recently updated is one of the best places to start.
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html
As you noted most books on the subject of the history of samurai armor and weapons are not very recent and tend to have some antiquated ideas or are missing recent information on the subject.
Posts: 487 Location: Northern California, US
Sun 20 Nov, 2011 9:20 am
Maybe you should fix that. Sounds like a great project.
Posts: 1,504 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Sun 20 Nov, 2011 2:20 pm
| Randall Moffett wrote: |
| Is there a reputable site that covers the development of Japanese armour or any good books? A few of my students last term were interested and I found a few but most were relatively ancient. |
What kind of information are you after? How detailed?
What's wrong with ancient? The Edo-period The manufacture of armour and helmets in sixteenth century Japan is an excellent source.
Posts: 2,121 Location: Northern Utah
Sun 20 Nov, 2011 6:42 pm
This is for undergraduate work so I'd like it to be something that will get them into good solid academic research. That said if I could find something that generally covers the development with good footnotes this might be more beneficial, and in English as none of them read/speak Japanese to my awareness.
Thanks for the help gentlemen.
RPM
Posts: 805 Location: new orleans
Sun 20 Nov, 2011 7:08 pm
| Michael Curl wrote: |
| Maybe you should fix that. Sounds like a great project. |
Michael.... "A picture is worth a thousand words"
I have spent a lot of time just uploading images I own and properly licensed images that were taken by other people to wikipedia commons and researching the proper names for many samurai related items, and creating appropriate categories for hundreds of images that were uploaded to wikipedia commons but not properly categorized. All of these images are available for anyone to use for any purpose. Here are a few examples:
Here is a link to my photobucket album with a lot of very hard to find images including riveted kusari (Japanese chainmail).
http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz238/estcrh/
Here is a link to every image I have uploaded for use by anyone to wikipedia commons
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Lis...tiqueworld
Wikipedia commons categories
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sa..._equipment
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Samurai_armour
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Samurai_accoutrements
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Samurai_clothing
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Depictions_of_samurai
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ph...22_exhibit
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Samurai_weapons
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Depictions_of_kyudo
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Kyudo_equipment
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Samurai_signal_devices
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ashigaru
I have also provided images, references and text for many Wikipedia articles.
Here is a list of every Wikipedia article that I am working on, have worked on or watch over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:EditWatchlist
Posts: 2,698 Location: Indonesia
Tue 22 Nov, 2011 5:49 am
It seems that Anthony Byant is no longer extensively updating his site since he's too busy working on books, one of which is already in print....
Posts: 1,576 Location: Bergen, Norway
Tue 22 Nov, 2011 7:27 am
Maybe someone should write a featured article about japanese swords... (hint hint)
Posts: 1,524 Location: Sydney, Australia
Mon 28 Nov, 2011 2:57 am
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sai_mo...yoku_2.jpg culd you tell me which period this item is dated to. i am VERY curious to see the appearence of SAI in mainland japan. these are supposedly only an okinawan item.
Posts: 805 Location: new orleans
Mon 28 Nov, 2011 7:16 am
William, other than to say that this particular sai was found in mainland Japan by an American civilian right after ww2 and appears to be quite old I can tell you nothing else about it. Antique sai are quite rare and almost never come up for sale, dating such an item would be quite difficult. There is no Wikipedia commons category "weapons of Okinawa" at the present time although anyone can make such a category and add appropriate Wikipedia commons images to the category. Okinawan and Japanese weapons are lumped together right now and do to the mingling of the two cultures some Okinawan weapons seem to have been adapted for use in Japan. Some jutte for instance look much like sai, and the bō is said to be an Okinawan weapon but it was definitely used Japan as well. Japan controlled Okinawa for several hundred years but finding accurate information on the transfer of weapons and fighting techniques between Japan and Okinawa is difficult.
Japanese jutte.
[ Linked Image ]
Posts: 1,504 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Tue 29 Nov, 2011 1:03 am
| William P wrote: |
| i am VERY curious to see the appearence of SAI in mainland japan. these are supposedly only an okinawan item. |
They were widely used outside Okinawa. Okinawan use was almost certainly imported from China, where it was fairly common in the south (as a police truncheon?). The manji-no-sai (sai with one tine turned the other way) was also used in China.
The current Wikipedia page on the sai ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_%28weapon%29 ) has it as widespread through SE Asia and Indonesia, and probably originating in India. With Indian origin, a route to China through SE Asia/Indonesia is quite plausible.
According to Mark Bishop, in "Okinawan Weaponry", sai only became popular in Okinawa quite late (1700s at the earliest).
Anyway, given that they weren't uncommon in China, and tended to be used most in the south (e.g, Fujian), transmission to Japan is possible, and the Chinese sai is a possible ancestor of the Japanese jutte.
Posts: 805 Location: new orleans
Tue 29 Nov, 2011 2:44 am
| Timo Nieminen wrote: |
According to Mark Bishop, in "Okinawan Weaponry", sai only became popular in Okinawa quite late (1700s at the earliest).
|
Timo, The Secret Royal Martial Arts of Ryukyu by Kanenori Sakon Matsuo http://books.google.com/books?id=XeVUCjFVaYQC...amp;f=true
states that the sai was used by domestic police (ufuchiku) to arrest criminals and for crowd control, the use of the sai was perfected in 1668 by Moto Chohei an Okinawan prince. Its hard to pin down exact information on this subject.
Posts: 1,524 Location: Sydney, Australia
Tue 29 Nov, 2011 9:28 pm
| Eric S wrote: |
| Timo Nieminen wrote: |
According to Mark Bishop, in "Okinawan Weaponry", sai only became popular in Okinawa quite late (1700s at the earliest).
|
Timo, The Secret Royal Martial Arts of Ryukyu by Kanenori Sakon Matsuo http://books.google.com/books?id=XeVUCjFVaYQC...amp;f=true
states that the sai was used by domestic police (ufuchiku) to arrest criminals and for crowd control, the use of the sai was perfected in 1668 by Moto Chohei an Okinawan prince. Its hard to pin down exact information on this subject. |
so were those sai you have photgraphed okinawan sai or were they from mainand japan?
secondly on the topic of japanese weapons... that axe... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ono_1.JPG is that a woodsmans axe, or a war axe? or was it the sort of thing that concievably could be used for both purposes.
whats also interesting is that tyetcubo, featuring the wooden pole studded with rivets, weighing 4 pounds is VERY reasonable for something like that, to contrast, my danish axe weighs 1.7kg (3.5 pounds) and it handles fine, theyre both the same length, i dont think 500 grams extra would be that much of a hassle,
Posts: 1,504 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Tue 29 Nov, 2011 9:59 pm
| William P wrote: |
secondly on the topic of japanese weapons... that axe... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ono_1.JPG is that a woodsmans axe, or a war axe? or was it the sort of thing that concievably could be used for both purposes. |
Neither; that's a carpenter's axe. They're still used today, and you can buy new ones. These ones are usually 30-40cm long overall (12-16" for non-metric readers). They vary in size a lot, so the one in the photo could be larger. Sometimes there is enough space to fit the fingers between the haft and the beard, so it can be gripped behind the head, but sometimes the beard is almost flush against the haft.
Posts: 805 Location: new orleans
Tue 29 Nov, 2011 11:48 pm
| Timo Nieminen wrote: |
| William P wrote: |
secondly on the topic of japanese weapons... that axe... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ono_1.JPG is that a woodsmans axe, or a war axe? or was it the sort of thing that concievably could be used for both purposes. |
Neither; that's a carpenter's axe. They're still used today, and you can buy new ones. These ones are usually 30-40cm long overall (12-16" for non-metric readers). They vary in size a lot, so the one in the photo could be larger. Sometimes there is enough space to fit the fingers between the haft and the beard, so it can be gripped behind the head, but sometimes the beard is almost flush against the haft. |
I suppose that this guy is a simple carpenter?
A few more.
[ Linked Image ]
Posts: 805 Location: new orleans
Wed 30 Nov, 2011 12:23 am
| William P wrote: |
so were those sai you have photgraphed okinawan sai or were they from mainand japan?
secondly on the topic of japanese weapons... that axe... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ono_1.JPG is that a woodsmans axe, or a war axe? or was it the sort of thing that concievably could be used for both purposes.
whats also interesting is that tyetcubo, featuring the wooden pole studded with rivets, weighing 4 pounds is VERY reasonable for something like that, to contrast, my danish axe weighs 1.7kg (3.5 pounds) and it handles fine, theyre both the same length, i dont think 500 grams extra would be that much of a hassle, |
William, The smaller sai is from Indonesia and it is called a "tjabang" or "chabang" the larger one I have labeled as being Okinawan (in style) even though it came from mainland Japan. The large one is quite thick and heavy, the Japanese seemed to prefer a lighter type of truncheon, most jutte I see while similar to sai are actually quite light.
As for the kanabo/tetsubo, at 4.8ft and 4lbs its heavy enough, I had always read about weapons like the kanabo being much heaver but when you actually swing one you soon realize how difficult it would be to swing a very long and heavy club with any accuracy.
As for the ono (axe), I have seen several old Japanese prints showing ono being carried or used by samurai, and while its certainly possible that any ono used in battle were just re-purposed working axe they would still be effective as a weapon.
[ Linked Image ]
kanabo/tetsubo
Posts: 1,524 Location: Sydney, Australia
Wed 30 Nov, 2011 12:29 am
| Timo Nieminen wrote: |
| William P wrote: |
secondly on the topic of japanese weapons... that axe... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ono_1.JPG is that a woodsmans axe, or a war axe? or was it the sort of thing that concievably could be used for both purposes. |
Neither; that's a carpenter's axe. They're still used today, and you can buy new ones. These ones are usually 30-40cm long overall (12-16" for non-metric readers). They vary in size a lot, so the one in the photo could be larger. Sometimes there is enough space to fit the fingers between the haft and the beard, so it can be gripped behind the head, but sometimes the beard is almost flush against the haft. |
when i look for something being a war axe i look for evidence the blade has been optimized for slicing, the way the edge slants on that axe is one such example, the other is weight, as well as the edge geometry i.e does it have a decently thin blade,
that said i dont think theres a whole lot of reasons why this couldnt inflict painful death on a samurai.
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