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Jeremy V. Krause
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 Posted: Sun 24 Mar, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Ken Jay wrote: | | I don't want to be seen as unfairly bashing Gus or T&T, I've bought a boat load of Atrims and used T&T for one such purchase. That said Gus does have an unfortunate history of issues with taking the money and failing to deliver swords or delivering after absurdly long wait times. Given the history, I will not buy another unless the sword was in stock with the seller. While Gus does seem to be producing swords,, all-be-it at a much reduced rate, I wouldn't hold out much hope of receiving a long ago ordered sword from Gus today. |
So are individuals just being told that they will receive their swords ""some time later", or are refunds being made?
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William Swiger
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| Posted: Sun 24 Mar, 2013 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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From what I have read on the different forums, no refunds are being issued as of now and Gus is working the back orders as he has time to finish them. He is also working on his new higher end line.
Tom at T&T is in a wait status for the swords to be completed and has recently posted on SBG:
"Gus is finishing up a batch of I-beams that have been on his to-do list for a while. once those are done, and it should be any day, he is diving back into sharps. while he was working on the I-beams a number of sharps piled up in the shop so hopefully in couple weeks we'll see a batch of sharps heading to their homes."
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Ken Jay
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| Posted: Mon 25 Mar, 2013 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| William Swiger wrote: | From what I have read on the different forums, no refunds are being issued as of now and Gus is working the back orders as he has time to finish them. He is also working on his new higher end line.
Tom at T&T is in a wait status for the swords to be completed and has recently posted on SBG:
"Gus is finishing up a batch of I-beams that have been on his to-do list for a while. once those are done, and it should be any day, he is diving back into sharps. while he was working on the I-beams a number of sharps piled up in the shop so hopefully in couple weeks we'll see a batch of sharps heading to their homes." |
I think this is part of the problem. While owing paid customers product, Gus is making swords for current sale. It's an old problem with many small shops. The paid for blade is less important cash flow wise than the potential new sale. The waiting customer and T&T are left hanging waiting on Gus. It's a bad business model and the longer it goes the less probable those waiting will be satisfied.
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Mon 25 Mar, 2013 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| William Swiger wrote: | From what I have read on the different forums, no refunds are being issued as of now and Gus is working the back orders as he has time to finish them. He is also working on his new higher end line.
Tom at T&T is in a wait status for the swords to be completed and has recently posted on SBG:
"Gus is finishing up a batch of I-beams that have been on his to-do list for a while. once those are done, and it should be any day, he is diving back into sharps. while he was working on the I-beams a number of sharps piled up in the shop so hopefully in couple weeks we'll see a batch of sharps heading to their homes." |
I guess in other words, folks will be receiving their swords "some time".
I would definitely say this is less than optimal business practice.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Mon 25 Mar, 2013 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, they are in a trap that is very difficult to get out of.
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Spenser T.
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| Posted: Wed 10 Apr, 2013 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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At this point I'm starting to think that there is a chance that I might never get the T&T sword that I've paid for. I'd like advice from the community- should I hold out longer for the chance that the order might go through or should I open a dispute with paypal? what would you guys do?
Thanks
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William Swiger
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| Posted: Thu 11 Apr, 2013 2:25 am Post subject: |
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My understanding is there is a time limit to file a claim.
If this is a pattern we see from a maker which is the case with the previous pay for the machine sale and such, why do customers place an order for any out of stock items? Understand some new buyers might not be aware and did not do research on the maker and past business practices. It would also be difficult for me on a personal level to purchase a sword that is recently made when it is common knowledge that past orders from the maker have not been completed.
I have had some custom swords that ran well over schedule but the makers completed the swords in the order they were received and kept me updated.
Bad business.
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 11 Apr, 2013 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| William Swiger wrote: | My understanding is there is a time limit to file a claim.
If this is a pattern we see from a maker which is the case with the previous pay for the machine sale and such, why do customers place an order for any out of stock items? Understand some new buyers might not be aware and did not do research on the maker and past business practices. It would also be difficult for me on a personal level to purchase a sword that is recently made when it is common knowledge that past orders from the maker have not been completed.
I have had some custom swords that ran well over schedule but the makers completed the swords in the order they were received and kept me updated.
Bad business. |
I originally thought so, about the time limit to file a claim, until when I just tested on my paypal today after reading Spenser's post.
It seems I can still file a dispute for a transaction back in late 2011. Back then I was trying to order a custom sword for a friend from a maker. I sent 300 USD deposit and the maker refused to make the sword and can't refund either, till this day.
Now I'm awaiting my friend's decision on whether should I file the dispute or not.
Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Ken Jay
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| Posted: Thu 11 Apr, 2013 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Spenser T. wrote: | At this point I'm starting to think that there is a chance that I might never get the T&T sword that I've paid for. I'd like advice from the community- should I hold out longer for the chance that the order might go through or should I open a dispute with paypal? what would you guys do?
Thanks |
I believe that T&T has let their web site "lapse." Perhaps the odds of ever seeing a sword from Gus/T&T are growing dimmer? I would advise you to try a and get your money back any way you can. Best of luck.
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William Carew
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| Posted: Thu 11 Apr, 2013 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ken Jay wrote: | | I think this is part of the problem. While owing paid customers product, Gus is making swords for current sale. It's an old problem with many small shops. The paid for blade is less important cash flow wise than the potential new sale. The waiting customer and T&T are left hanging waiting on Gus. It's a bad business model and the longer it goes the less probable those waiting will be satisfied. |
This does, indeed, irk me as a customer. It's the equivalent of sitting down first at a restaurant, ordering your meal right away, paying upfront at the waiter's insistence, then waiting forlornly for hours for your food while, in the meantime, other customers who arrive and sit down long after you manage to receive their meals, have dessert, pay their bills and leave for home. Rude is the only word for it.
Worse, the T&TA situation is like sitting in that same restaurant and trying hopelessly to find your waiter or waitress to ask for an update on your order, or a refund so you can leave, only to be totally ignored as if you weren't there. The only communication you receive is the occasional anonymous shout every few hours from the back of the kitchen that there will be absolutely no refunds and so you'll just have to have faith that your dinner will arrive... one day. Then the owner starts turning off the lights and removing the signs from the front of the restaurant while you're still sitting in the dark, out of pocket and without your meal. To say this doesn't instil confidence would be the understatement of the year.
Clearly that is no way to run a restaurant. It doesn't work any better for a retail business selling swords or any other type of product either. It's a model doomed to failure because it ignores the most important ingredient for success in any business - customer satisfaction and word of mouth reputation.
Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Spenser T.
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| Posted: Thu 11 Apr, 2013 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Ken Jay wrote: | | Spenser T. wrote: | At this point I'm starting to think that there is a chance that I might never get the T&T sword that I've paid for. I'd like advice from the community- should I hold out longer for the chance that the order might go through or should I open a dispute with paypal? what would you guys do?
Thanks |
I believe that T&T has let their web site "lapse." Perhaps the odds of ever seeing a sword from Gus/T&T are growing dimmer? I would advise you to try a and get your money back any way you can. Best of luck. |
Hey Ken,
Thanks for bringing to my attention that the T&T website has vanished... I suppose that's the best sign a guy can hope for on what to do.
Thank you to everyone else for their insight on the situation... I will have to be much more careful if I plan on buying any more swords in the future... this can be risky stuff.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Thu 11 Apr, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Please note that several months ago, Tried and True was removed from the Industry Professionals group here on myArmoury.com for not responding to any of my attempts to communicate with them. I reached out to inquire about the several reports of questionable business practices that were brought to my attention. Without a response, I was left without any choice but to remove them from the group to prevent them from conducting any further business here.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Not looking very good for those customers who gave their money and trust to this company/individual.
So do we know of the very latest individual to have received a sword from T and T? and how long ago was that?
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 7:18 am Post subject: |
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http://www.sword-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&...1ca3190a3a
This is the most recent communication I know of, from the Sword Buyers Guide forum.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Justin King
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I have gotten out of the habit of taking these issues public, but I ordered several bare blades from Gus around the time of the "Pay Off the Machines Sale", paid $1080 up front and never recieved any of them. I have attempted to contact Gus a number of times over the intervening years, and did manage to get ahold of Tom about a year or so ago, without any satisfactory result.
I, as well as many other customers, helped pay for the machines that Gus is using to produce swords for more recent orders and stock items, while ignoring his previous obligations. I don't think that was his intent at the outset, but neither Gus or Tom have shown any willingness whatsoever to make good on it with me. I would take legal action at this point if there were any reasonable way for me to do so. I strongly recommend against doing business with them on any level.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 11:39 am Post subject: |
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I think it's important for these issues to become public. I certainly think that a matter-of-fact method of discussing them is required while avoiding any bashing or personal crusades.
Had I had more information on the outstanding issues with the maker in question, I would likely have not allowed another venture related to the maker, such as Tried and True, to enter the Industry Professionals group. Most of the reports came to my attention very, very late and after things started to repeat themselves.
When approached recently by a new vendor for ATrim items, Evolution Arms, I was assured that only in-stock items would be sold and no money would be received until an item was in hand. This was a part of the vetting process and was the only way that I would allow entry into the group given the history of this maker. I was reassured by the business model and feel more confident that there won't be a repeat of past problems.
I want to insulate the membership here from unscrupulous businesses or even risky ventures as much as possible. I failed in this case.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Justin King
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | I think it's important for these issues to become public. I certainly think that a matter-of-fact method of discussing them is required while avoiding any bashing or personal crusades.
Had I had more information on the outstanding issues with the maker in question, I would likely have not allowed another venture related to the maker, such as Tried and True, to enter the Industry Professionals group. Most of the reports came to my attention very, very late and after things started to repeat themselves.
When approached recently by a new vendor for ATrim items, Evolution Arms, I was assured that only in-stock items would be sold and no money would be received until an item was in hand. This was a part of the vetting process and was the only way that I would allow entry into the group given the history of this maker. I was reassured by the business model and feel more confident that there won't be a repeat of past problems.
I want to insulate the membership here from unscrupulous businesses or even risky ventures as much as possible. I failed in this case. |
You can only work with the information you have, and you have probably done more than anyone could reasonably expect, considering your position. I can't see how any failure in this regard could possibly be laid at your feet, I have always admired your sense of fairness and your objectivity in handling these types of issues, which come up all to often in this industry and quite understandably involve a lot of subjective dialogue from the involved parties.
I kept my own issue private, giving Gus the benefit of the doubt, for years, but evidently my sense of discretion was wasted in this case. I have given up any expectation of satisfaction in this matter and can only hope that sharing my experience can help another prospective customer from having a similar one. My personal feelings on this have been hot enough at times that I could have done myself, and your forum, a disservice by posting them, so in that regard, I'm glad that I didn't.
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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I agree Nathan did what he could already. Many of us were trying to be "understanding and forgiving", thus not disclosing any bad business issue right away for Nathan to act accordingly.
And from Justin's posts, I'm smelling something so similar to my case. Sigh...
Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Sat 13 Apr, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: |
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These business practices are a broken record that just keeps on spinning in the sword collecting community. This is at least the fifth instance of a trusted maker in the community absconding with people's money that I can recall since I started collecting. Its always the same, after an interval of apparently great product execution, people in the community really trust the maker. More money (orders) start being accepted but items suddenly flow much slower or stop being delivered. Because they can't get answers paying customers eventually start posting questions on the forums. Fan-boys come out of the woodwork making every excuse in the world for the maker. Praising the product and promising that the wait will be worth it. The maker or his advocates make promises to try this or to do that. You just have to give them time and all will be right!
Then...eventually...they just go silent.
The fan-boys, realization upon them, go away and the community finally understands that there is a real problem at hand.
Its also the second or third time that I can recall one of these guys absconding with money and then trying to rise from their corruption as if nothing really happened. They have a new business name or a new front man. Still the same guy running the show on the back end. Not to worry though, they were just overwhelmed by life the last time or something to that effect gets discussed on the forum circuit. All that they didn't do before should be forgotten now because they have a different business model. They're different people now! Trust the new business model! Trust the new brand name! Trust the new front man! Trust them...
...and more often than not, we do!
Things usually go well for a time...at least for the first people in.
Sounds remarkably similar to a Ponzi scheme.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Sat 13 Apr, 2013 10:16 am Post subject: |
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I'm not a fanboy, but I feel the need to defend these guys up to a certain point. Tom and Gus are not villains deliberately out to cheat people. They were using an unworkable business process and at this point are in an unsolvable situation. That doesn't help the customers that haven't received and probably never will receive the swords they ordered or get a refund. Trying legal avenues to get money back will not work, as there is probably no money to get back. I'm sad to hear that there are still people waiting for their "Pay Off the Machine Sale" swords. I thought that at least all those orders had been filled.
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This is a standard topic