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Bryan W.





Joined: 27 Oct 2007

Posts: 198

PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I felt the SCA topic was more relevant to the forums than topics such as thai kickboxing, polo, and private school. As I said before, he shames everything he claims to be associated with.

I have no issue with you coming to the defense of the SCA and I have absolutely nothing against them, nor do I have an actual opinion on them even. I don't think my comments were as much negative about the group, than about the individual and simply commenting on his claims. My comment was with regards to how individuals such as this give organizations undeservedly bad names.

The "bad rap" isn't coming from me, but the person in question. If you've taken offense somehow to a comment about someone else, then I apologize.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 4:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahhh ... woops! My OP was not designed to solicit a string of vitriol about this man, who may well yet come to see the error of his ways; it was to point out that, as much as could be expected in the circumstances, Rod kept to the issue during the incident itself, and later, in the washup, took steps to prevent possible physical confrontation ... and then when he found he had nothing positive to say ... he said nothing.

That was all.

Yes, so we agree that punching a horse in the head is wrong - for ethical and moral reasons, perhaps, but also practical ones (there are far more effective ways of getting one off your foot). That much is clear and easy to agree on. My point was that what is hard is to remain calm in the face of potential danger, and to not engage in name-calling or put-downs, and Rod managed to do this, much to his credit, and to the credit of the sport of jousting, and the WMA in general.

Apologies if I didn't make that point strongly enough, and thanks to the folks who responded in the spirit of the original post.

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Alex Bond




Location: CA USA
Joined: 10 Mar 2012

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To Mark: your original post was very clearly stated that you felt Rod represented all of us in WMA, living history, and equestrian groups with honor when dealing with Landon and what he did to his horse (which easily could have been another person). I completely agree with what you said and feel you didn't need to clarify your statement. You in no way singled out one group from the rest and instead said that what Rod did was for ALL of us.

To Bryan:
In your first post you bring up the point of Landon reinforcing negative SCA stereotypes when in fact it is you reinforcing those stereotypes and using Landon as a catalyst. In order to reinforce a stereotype the stereotype must first exist and be known socially by those outside of the stereotyped group. EX: Many minorities here in the USA are stereotyped as being gang members or illegals by those who are not members of said minority. While this may be true for a VERY small portion of the minority group, is it right for someone outside the group who has no experience with the group to reinforce that negative stereotype publicly which then reflects on the whole group?

In your second post you state that Landon claiming membership to the SCA (or any group) embarrasses the members of those groups and the organizations as a whole even though he was not acting as a member of those groups during Full Metal Jousting. While I agree with David Smith's original quote from his Afghan interpreter that is because recent atrocities in Afghanistan have allegedly been committed by US enlisted soldiers in uniform (thus being an active and engaged member representing said group, or the US military). Landon wasn't wearing a SCA, polo, thai kickboxing, or private school uniform...he was wearing a Full Metal Jousting uniform...so why did he only embarrass those outside groups and not Full Metal Jousting? I feel Full Metal Jousting has more responsibility than said other groups and they themselves should be the ones that are embarrassed because they put this jerk on TV without properly vetting him and what they got was a taped, broadcasted, and internet viral punching of a horse.

In your third post you state you have no issues with the SCA as a group or its members and feel that you only singled out Landon as an individual. Well...which is it? In your first and second post you reinforce negative stereotypes about a group as a whole which you don't belong to and also state that anyone who acts in a way unbecoming of that group, even if they are not active members participating in said group, reflects poorly not only on the group but all members of said group. Then you finish your third and last post stating that you were addressing a single person and that a single person gives an organization a bad name and that I shouldn't have taken offense to a comment directed at Landon. Lets try a little exercise. In your arguments every time the word SCA, group, or organization appears go ahead an replace those words with a racial designation of your choice (white, black, asian, hispanic)...how does your argument sound now?

I think we both agree what Landon did was wrong. He did what he did because he is a jerk, not because of any group he associates with and him being a jerk shouldn't then brush a wide swath of jerk paint on everyone else in the group. It is what that group or group of people does after a despicable act as a unit which reflects on the group. I do not take offense to what you said about Landon...I take offense to having the honor of a group I am deeply associated with being tarnished (thus reflecting on my honor) by some pompous jerk (Landon) and someone else who isn't a member. I welcome you Bryan to join your local SCA group or come to a large scale event to see what we are really about. I have no doubt that you will find people of like soul and mind to yourself and see that Landon in no way represents the group or its members and maybe one day you will come to love the group as much as I do.

Wake early if you want another man's life or land.
No lamb for the lazy wolf. No battle's won in bed.
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Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Posts: 450

PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: SCA stereotypes & animal abuse         Reply with quote

I was afraid this would happen. The moment someone mentions the SCA in a less than favorable light, there will be some true believer who will rush forward, rattan pen in hand, to take its defense, even if the original critique was no more than a ''glancing blow''. When I was a member, long time ago, I saw the best and the worst of it, and like many forumites I will still attend some of the more colourfull events, such as Pennsic, or an occasional feast when I know the cooks, and when I do I have the pleasure of meeting many of the foremost WMA practitioners who give classes and share the occasional bottle of mead. This doesn't alter the fact that you meet a lot of crazy people in the SCA, but then you get your fair share at the local Lion's or Optimist Club... so I think that should be taken into account when using the term '' stereotypes''. What may seem a stereotype of a local SCA chapter ( '' They just get real drunk and bash each other with sticks''), will not apply in a uniform fashion across the whole spectrum of groups that make up the Society. In my day, the great pet peave of the more culturally inclined had to do with the sub-culture of stick jockeys running around in old hockey gear, and then there was the whole Japanese thing, and so on...So if your local chapter is a bit heavy on the crazy side, the sterotypes might not be applicable to the next chapter, or Barony, or Shire.
Alex, I am sure you are proud of your involvment with that organisation, as I am also sure that some forumites have had less than pleasant experiences. Mr. Landon's stand and attitude certainly reminded me of some SCA Dukes and Kings I have encountered and whose company I certainly would not seek out in a social gathering, being RIGHT at any cost is annoying. And if it involves the hurting of an animal, it becomes downright offensive.
So, different strokes for different folks, long live the SCA,long live WMA and please down punch horses, wherever you hail from. Peace.

Bon coeur et bon bras
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This thread needs to go no further off-topic. The issue at hand is how a member of the show (Rod Walker) and the rest of the FMJ team handled the horse abuse. All the side commentary on the abuser's affiliations are off-topic as they have absolutely nothing to do with the contestant being abusive to the animal. There should be no further discussion on what the SCA has to do with this, as there is no connection. Consider this a warning.
Happy

ChadA

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Alex Bond




Location: CA USA
Joined: 10 Mar 2012

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Mr. Arnow heard loud and clear.
Wake early if you want another man's life or land.
No lamb for the lazy wolf. No battle's won in bed.
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Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 16 Sep 2005

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Posts: 462

PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2012 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree, I think Rod handled this very well, as did the rest of the FMJ staff.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few folks out there who do punch their horses, but if for no other reason, this fellow was in the wrong for treating the horse in a way that its owner disapproved of, and then attempting to defend that position remorselessly.

But to put this in perspective, you want to avoid hitting the face since the horse can develop face aversion issues. You can always get the horse off your foot by pushing your elbow into the horse's side and lean into it, or lifting the foot, or something. Punching simply isn't necessary.

To punch someone else's horse strikes me as an abuse of the trust that is given in allowing you to work with that horse in the fist place.

-Ed T. Toton III
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Jen Miilu




Location: CA
Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: From Armour Achive         Reply with quote

Hi Fellows,
Im surprised your all passing such judgement with out knowing Landon. Worried


This is what he posted in Armour achive.

"Hello Everyone,

It was for drama’s sake they blew this out of proportion. All horse riders know that sometimes you have to smack a horse! (whether it be with your hands, crop or spurs)

The horse was crushing my little piggies, I had a split second before what I felt like my toes were gonna break so I punched the horse. Not to hard, but enough to get Billy off my foot.

No he is not head shy now.

As for being kicked off, It wasn't directly because I punched the horse... for dramas sake they looked for punishment.
I was asked to clean the horses sheath...... which I refused, that was when they decided to have me leave.



Rod, Im not a sociopath....and I think at times in our lives we can all be a little "Douchey" im sure my ex girlfriend can agree with you on that.

Take care everyone and keep watching!"

L

P.S Congratulations on winning crown Sir Patrik





Me again.

Saying that. Would anyone like to compare horse treatment now to the medieval times? I bet we can find plenty of manuals that have no problems hitting a horse, whipping them or spurring. Many trainers today, Including mine still do. we actually use a thin wooden stick with a nail in it to whack our stallion. Why? because it works. Eek!

The majority of people posting about this see horse as only pets. There working animals.

Saying this he shouldn't of hit someone else's horse.



Jen
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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
Joined: 05 Feb 2004

Posts: 230

PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All I will say is I was there, I know exacty what happened and why.

Landon did himself no favours at all.

Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
Joined: 08 Sep 2004

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod Walker wrote:
All I will say is I was there, I know exacty what happened and why.

Landon did himself no favours at all.


And....that should be the final word.

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Wed 11 Apr, 2012 12:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
I find all of this very interesting given that I grew up in a very rural area and I'm not sure this action would even raise an eyebrow there. Then again the people around me in those days were farmers, not equestrians, so perhaps a much different world view.


I've seen farmers and ranchers do things to horses that would make any "equestrian" vomit in their mouth. I think you're right about different world views. Many of the horsemen I know view their animals as tools of the trade and would probably look at this as rather childish behavior all the way around. Then again, most of them wouldn't waste their time watching a show like this.

I'll be the odd man out and say flat out that, while I found the contestants reaction to be a bit juvenile to say the least, I also found the reaction of the instructors to be a bit overly dramatic. It really came across as a bunch of boys measuring their genitals. No disrespect meant to Rod and his crew but it seemed like playing to the camera.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
Joined: 05 Feb 2004

Posts: 230

PostPosted: Wed 11 Apr, 2012 12:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't ever punch someone elses horse in the head for standing on your foot in a sand arena and then be completly unapologitic about it.

Also please note that Jen, Landons girlfriend by the way, has no issues with hitting a horse with a stick,,,,,,, with a nail in it. WTF!!!

Seriously, what is wrong with you people?

Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


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PostPosted: Wed 11 Apr, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Let's not have this devolve into a shouting match. It hasn't yet, but I can sense people's hackles rising. Disagree if you must, but please remember to do so in a civil fashion.

When you're a guest in someone else's environment, you should follow their rules and respect the culture they've established. That's a good rule whether participating in a reality television show or on an internet forum. It's a show of respect.

Happy

ChadA

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Eric Meulemans
Industry Professional



Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Reading list: 18 books

Posts: 163

PostPosted: Wed 11 Apr, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:

I've seen farmers and ranchers do things to horses that would make any "equestrian" vomit in their mouth. I think you're right about different world views. Many of the horsemen I know view their animals as tools of the trade and would probably look at this as rather childish behavior all the way around.


That's a whole lot of generalizing. "Farmers," "Ranchers," "Horsemen," Equestrians." You know, it is possible to be more than one of those at a time, and neither does the perceived or espoused views of any particular label represent the whole of any or each.

I've seen plenty of "Equestrians" do things that would cause concern to any self-respecting "Farmer" or "Rancher." Even if you view an animal as a "tool," that doesn't give you license or even necessarily encourage abuse or irresponsible handling and care. And the simple fact is, if that's the only way you view them, you probably don't deserve any of the above labels.

Rod Walker wrote:
Don't ever punch someone elses horse in the head for standing on your foot in a sand arena and then be completly unapologitic about it.

Also please note that Jen, Landons girlfriend by the way, has no issues with hitting a horse with a stick,,,,,,, with a nail in it. WTF!!!

Seriously, what is wrong with you people?


What Rod said. Exactly.
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Wed 11 Apr, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry but while I can agree that what the guy did was dumb, especially given that it was not his animal and he was in a contest on TV, some of the vitriol just seems overblown.

Bad thing is outside of Rod (because he had camera charisma, was on it often, and really seemed to take control of this incident) I don't really find any of the other people from the show memorable. This polarizing and controversial moment of stupidity might just be the show's enduring bit of celebrity, which is a shame. I suspect Landon is getting much more notoriety out of his involvement than he ever would have gotten by winning the contest. I have no idea who won (or wins) or who even made finals. It sure seems like the producers ended up making this guy the story.

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Jonathon Hanson




Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Joined: 11 Mar 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed 11 Apr, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I applaud Rod Walker on his calm and professional handling of a potentially dangerous situation. However, I also have two points that I think are worth mentioning:

First of all, Shane Adams is the host of a television show and one of the largest publc faces of professional jousting. Therefore, the way he handled himself during the confrontation with Landon did not appear at all to be decent or acceptable conduct. Rather than extinguish the conflict and send Landon on his way, Shane directly contributed to the situation by insulting and provoking an already convinced former contestant. It doesn't matter if Shane thinks that he was trying to impart a message that was important, what does is that his actions were what necessitated Rod's intervention and without his help they could have started a fistfight between two grown men on national television. I think Shane's a good person who meant well by his strict approach, but it should be clear to him that his conduct went over the top.

Secondly, I think it was wrong of the show to not mention the disciplinary process that took place in full. Landon was offered a punishment which he willfully rejected, so it seems that there was not quite a "zero tolerance" policy in place as Shane seemed to indicate. This type of editing makes the show itself look bad and it lends credibility to Landon's otherwise unconvincing argument. They should have either told us entirely about what happened or not shown us at all. Hopefully the show and its cast learns from this and applies this to any future seasons if there is a need for disciplinary action.

If the horse were Landon's and not under the trust of somebody else, I'd say that he could be excused for trying to avoid an injury that could have potentially jeopardized his working ability, let alone his chances in the contest. It didn't look like any of the crew was willing to provide him any assistance, so he acted on his own. Not necessarily the right action to take, but one that preserved his own safety. Different folks have different rules on horses, and to some his action was justified. I don't train or ride horses, so I can't comment on if hitting one in such a situation was the right call. To myself, Landon was incorrect in hitting the horse because it was the property of somebody else and for that reason alone. As he violated the policies of Full Metal Jousting, it was entirely within the show's power to throw him off. I don't know Landon so I can't comment on how he is as a person, just about how he approached the situation on camera. He honestly seemed to believe that he was in the right and would not be convinced otherwise, so again I think it was wrong for Shane to lose his temper and almost get into a fistfight. Seeing how Landon appeared on camera, though, I find it unlikely that he would have been able to advance far into the contest.

Again, Rod is to be commended for doing his part to defuse conflict and handle things in the manner of a professional public figure. I myself will remain a loyal fan of Full Metal Jousting and all of its hosts and staff.
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