myArmoury.com - Ornamentation: Fantasy vs. History (photo-intensive)

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

And here are a couple other highly ornate examples to show:

Click the photograph to see a higher-resolution detailed version

Left: Saber, circa 1590
Center and Right: German Rapier, circa 1640

Thom O'Leary · Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 5:12 pm Post subject:

Hi Nathan,

You had posted this image the other day:

http://pics.myArmoury.com/spadavenezia1500a.html

Can you provide any references or more background info on this sword? I am quite intrigued by it and would like to go a little deeper with research. The more I examine it, the more early 20th century motifs it seems to have - which is entirely possible on a 16th century piece - but has made me all the more curious....

Thanks,
-TJO

Keith Larman · Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 5:20 pm Post subject:

Just fwiw from the Japanese sword perspective...

One thing that makes it *so* easy to pick out swords designed by non-Japanese or Chinese fakes or whatever is that they miss the aesthetic. There are some amazingly, um, well, guady as hell swords out there (looking at them through modern eyes that is). "Dress up and see the shogun and show off the size of your manly bits" kinda swords. But. They always have a sort of internal consistency. They usually have a theme running through them, an overall feel, a "design" of sorts. Often superbly subtle. Sometimes really overdone. But it is there.

Most modern designed stuff (my own included sometimes I must admit) often misses that sort of thing. It is tough. It is hard to be subtle. But subtle doesn't always mean lacking flash. It can have lots of "bling" to use a modern phrase but that "bling" needs to fit. In the design. In functionality. It has to have a "raison d'etre".

The point that has been drilled into me by the various people who have taught me the craft is that form does still follow function. Most things are there because they make the sword better. That heavy gold part there better be offset in terms of balance elsewhere in the piece. The use of the soft gold foil over the habaki makes sense but the copper habaki underneath better be properly work hardened for actual use. The foil on just the seppa (washers) should be thin enough so they don't introduce extra play by compressing when the entire rig is put together. And on and on.

Some mistake the concept of "Shibui" ("understated elegance" is the common translation) with it must be simple. Not really the case. If it is fairly ornate, there is usually a lot more going on underneath it all.

And some of the most ornate *good* sword mounts in Japanese culture are often *extremely* well made. The extra stuff is done "because ya can" and not for it's own sake if that makes any sense. Showing more ability, more control, etc. is all good. Some things were done because they were *very* difficult to do well and maintain the functional aspects of the sword at the same time.

Interesting thread... Got me thinking about my own projects...

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Mathias B. · Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 6:53 am Post subject:

Lee O'Hagan · Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 8:33 am Post subject:

Thanks Nathan,
Cool pics Kirk cheers,
There was also some pics of the Charlemagne sabre over at SFI in the pub under,
Sabres,sabres,sabres,

Mathias,
I've always been fond of this fantasy rapier,
Six fingered rapier of The Princess Bride,

Mathias B. · Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 10:00 am Post subject:

OK, so there are fantasy rapiers, thanks

Mikko Kuusirati · Posted: Tue 16 Nov, 2004 3:48 am Post subject:

Hi there, yet another newcomer here...

For historical swords comparable to those in Conan the Barbarian and such films, one could do worse than look at Viking swords. A couple of examples:

From the viking burial site of Kilmainham

One of my all-time favorites, this beauty... from Lund, IIRC (note the locket stuck to the crossguard)

All in all, I think the main difference between the decoration on historical and fantasy swords is that, in historical examples it very rarely interferes with the sword's function, while in many fantasy designs the decorative elements would seem at the least distracting, and at worst downright dangerous, to the user - for example, the ever-popular horns/talons/fangs curving from the cross *towards the grip*, making it impossible to hold without having them dig into you hand, wrist, or arm; or the frequently impractical decoration on the grip itself, making it uncomfortable in the extreme to actually grip. Also, the fantasy decorative motifs and themes are usually quite easy to distinguish from historical ones - there's a certain, almost invariable, Hammer Gothic or Art Nouveau air to the modern fantasy variety.

Not that this necessarily makes the fantasy pieces unattractive, of course (I love Art Nouveau and Hammer horror films, too Happy

), but it does make them stand out from historical specimens. Which might be either good or bad, depending on your tastes and needs.

Joseph C. · Posted: Sat 20 Nov, 2004 9:10 am Post subject:

Does anyone have any additional information on the Teutonic sword that Lee O'Hagan posted? I am very interested in learning more about it--especially since it seems very well preserved for a 13th Century sword.

Mikko Kuusirati · Posted: Sat 20 Nov, 2004 10:02 am Post subject:

The two-handed sword of Mehmet the Conqueror, with the sultan's genealogy inlaid in gold along the blade, in the Topkapi collections:

Yataghan of Suleiman I, also in Topkapi:

Andrew Winston · Posted: Sun 21 Nov, 2004 10:33 pm Post subject:

Great thread, guys! I agree with Nathan's premise compeletely. While the simple, serious pieces hold their own allure for me, it is usually the ornate that gets my attention these days.

Here's one of my favorites:

Derek Wassom · Posted: Tue 23 Nov, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject:

Here are a couple I got to handle in Switzerland Razz

:

Derek Wassom · Posted: Tue 23 Nov, 2004 2:48 pm Post subject:

Here are a few more beauties:

Derek Wassom · Posted: Tue 23 Nov, 2004 2:50 pm Post subject:

Derek Wassom · Posted: Tue 23 Nov, 2004 3:01 pm Post subject:

and more

Derek Wassom · Posted: Tue 23 Nov, 2004 3:12 pm Post subject:

even more

Derek Wassom · Posted: Tue 23 Nov, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject:

and done!

Derek Wassom · Posted: Tue 23 Nov, 2004 3:34 pm Post subject:

I lied...a few more:

Derek Wassom · Posted: Tue 23 Nov, 2004 3:37 pm Post subject:

Now I'm done...for now.