[Craig Wrenn]

Has anyone sen sabatons like these before?

From one of the photos it looks like the metal goes underneath the toes which is something I have never seen but I will admit I spend most of my time looking at 15th century armour not this style.

My gut feeling is that this is a 19th century suit for display.

Craig

[Anna M B]

We have had a long look at Fred after all the comments posted and there's a great deal more going on that we thought. As to the arms, my husband suspected he had put the lower arms on the wrong way around, but it's been suggested here that the shoulder plates are the wrong way around as well. When we went to examine these pieces, we found that if the arms were reversed the high collar guards would be the wrong way round, with them, tapering from low to high rather than having the higher part at the front. One of the photos someone posted shows the high part of the collar to the front, so we can only assume that previous owners had taken these pieces apart and not put them together incorrectly.

On the photo James supplies we see the similarity to Fred's legs with the studs and fixing keyholes below the knee. Unfortunately this too is an area that has undergone repairs, more than once, it appears, and as a result, they do not clip properly, which makes them look mismatched.

As to the boot, only that outside part of the right foot is overlapping in the wrong direction, the other side and the other foot overlap opposite. Just to clarify, there is no metal base to the foot, just a small part under the toes, a sort of foothold to keep the leg armour in place.

Going back to the helmet, it was in quite poor condition when it came into our possession. Part of the lower hinged protection was missing on one side and someone had re-drilled it to fit, so the face was a bit distorted. My husband tried to put that right. There is a great deal of detail at the back, in the way the articulated plates are cut, plus there is a lot of evidence for some sort of lining being fixed around the actual helmet and the face opening. The rivets are so well disguised they are nearly invisible. The back of the helmet sadly is a bit misshapen as a result of neglect. We don't know how long it was stored disassembled in that card board box. As I said in the first post, there was so much rust, no detail was visible at all.

I'm attaching a side view photo of the helmet as well as a side view of the right shoulder/arm. The weather still does not permit a full-length shot.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Hello, Anna, the pauldrons are definitely wrong way round. The haute-pieces (the plates standing up from the shoulders) were primarily frontal defences, to protect the base of the neck, and did not got far around the back, if at all. The way they are now they would not do much good. Counterintuitively, they were often lower in the front than in the back. You have to think about where they would be when the arms are lifted forward. Yours are unusually tall and at an odd angle, which I am used to seeing only on the left pauldron on tournament armours, which causes me to doubt their authenticity. I attach a photo showing an example. Some come further round the back than this, but not much further. Your side shot of the helm is very interesting, indeed. Those articulations at the base of the skull in the rear are very Flemish in character, not seen in Italian or German work. Are the elbows symmetrical?

[Anna M B]

Hello James, thank you for taking the time to respond, and to show examples. I must say, since I started writing about Fred, I've learned a lot. We have switched the arms around and I must say they look more natural in this position, however now the lower arms seem "wrong." The forearm on the right side is not decorated so I think this should be on the side the shield is held? Likewise, the elbow now on the left (or shield side) side is articulated and perhaps this should be on the other side. I may be wrong, we've tried using logic before when deciding how things should go! The elbows are not the same, one appears to be articulated, as I said, and the other has a hole on the inside and a small double slit which seems to be where a strap fastens on the outside. I'll try to take a photo of these close up to show you. I've take another torso shot without the helm for you to see how the arms and shoulders now look. The arms appear to be different lengths, but they are not, one is just bent more at the elbow. None of the leather fixings are authentic, and we added the leather jerkin and trousers to help the suit hang on the stand better.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Anna,

Looking much better!

At this point in development of armour for mounted use, the shield had pretty much been dispensed with; consequently the left side was reinforced. Parade armour, pageant stuff, etc. were exceptions. To substantiate the thought that "Fred" is a composite, note the difference in the lower arms, in addition to the lack of decoration, the left is of a tulip shape. And the left elbow piece is of the floating type. Additionally, it is by all indications is probably an older (real stuff) piece, evidence being, exfoliation of the elbow surface, the provisions for a reinforcing piece (slots and tang plus the stray hole in the rear).

Concerning the helmet: Is it made in two pieces joined at he comb (soldered), or is it one piece? Also, are there any hammer marks on the interior surface? As per James, there are some relatively rare examples of articulation in helmets of this type (close helmet), but mostly in burgonets (an open face type that is usually lighter).

Do not believe the greaves to be original as they are too symmetrical.

Believe that you have made a most fortunate find ... looking forward to the next episode.

Regards,
Dan

[Randall Moffett]

Anna,

I think those who are saying composite might be right as there are many things that looks very different as far as style and such go. The arm that currently is on the left seems to be a right arm, at least the couter. It might be you can disconnet them and place it right ways out as some arm harnesses of this period do. The inside of it is wider along the part the protects the inside of the arm. This is an area it should be a thinner span of metal.

Depending on where you are in England I suspect it might be worth your time to get a person who knows this type of thing to look in person.

RPM

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Hello, Anna, the haute-pieces are not real. I don't 'like' the shoulders much either. The shapes look off. Does the breastplate have an articulation above the waist belt?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Anna,

Agree with Randall, the left elbow cop/couter is positioned incorrectly; i.e. larger in the back. However, still believe it to be for a left arm as it is made to accommodate a reinforcing piece. It is upside down, reversal would put the slots for strapping in the back. The lower arm piece is correct as the hinges would be on the outside.

In my opinion, James is correct about both the haute pieces and pauldrons, as they are clearly of the 19th C. or the Victorian Era.

Regardless of all of the picking and comments, you do have a real nifty antique on your hands and should have an expert look at it at soon as convenient.

Cheers,
Dan

[Allan Senefelder]

[Anna M B]

Hello all,
All the comments are interesting and have educated my husband and I about "Fred." One thing is for certain and that is whether it is a composite or in fact a stage prop, it's still a nice suit. It's a shame the photos aren't better. In "person" you can see so much more than the photos show. The greaves may look symmetrical but in actuality one is slightly larger than the other around the calf. The feet are slightly different in size as well.

I'm attaching a photo of the waistline, which as some of you observed , is articulated above the waist belt. There is also a shot looking down onto the top of the helm. It is not soldered, the crest is solid and there are no seams. There is some damage to the front of the crest and also down the back. The inside of the helm is hammered but it's a bit rusty which makes it hard to see the hammered effect.

[Sean Flynt]

I think you're going to need a rider on your homeowner's insurance.

[Anna M B]

Oh my! I hadn't even thought of that!

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

This is adding up to a very complex picture. Try shining a couple of your strongest torches into the helm and see if you can take a good photo of the inside that way. The same with the breastplate. Except for the one lower arm, it looks to me that someone did the etching after the harness was put together from odds and ends (no shame in that, it's quite normal. One rarely sees armours that are homogeneous). It is possible that some of the etching is original, but if so, the fellow that copied it onto the other parts was really, really good. A shot of the back of the armour is in order, too. The cullet is longer than the fauld, after all.

[Anna M B]

Hello James, I'm attaching a photo of the inside of the helmet. It's very rusty as you can see. This is pretty much what the entire suit looked like when we got it. I will take a photo of the inside of the breastplate when my husband can help me lift it off the stand. It's a bit too heavy and fiddly for me to undo the straps and lift it by myself.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Hello, Ann,

This is very intriguing. I would suggest another shot where you lift the entire face assembly up so that you can take a closer shot of the inside of the skull, and those very interesting lames in the back of the skull. From what I can see, it looks very good; no trace of two piece construction, modern welding, or modern raising. It also has some liner rivets, as you had previously described.. I don't like the gorget lames all that much, but they are often replaced, possibly because they were often on leathers. It is typical for leather articulated gorget lames to be attached to each other for modern display (even in prominent museums!) through the 'truing holes', which were later filled in with blind rivets. Rubbing the inside of the helmet skull down with some coarse steel wool might help make the hammer marks more visible, and won't do any harm.

Oh, and by the way, the lance rest isn't right, has a definite Vic'y smell, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the breastplate.

[Anna M B]

I have tried to take a photo of the helmet with both the visor and "chin guard" raised. I'm sorry I don't know the correct terms for these bits. This is the best shot I could get. I hope you can see some detail. There are a couple of repairs as you see, and sadly it appears someone, at some time, has put two small holes in the back, probably trying to attach a plume or other ornament. You will also notice there is some damage to the lower part of the crest. I will post a photo of the inside of the breast plate as soon as I have some help removing it from the stand. I must say, the closer I look at Fred the more intrigued I am. Even if it is just a display piece I think it is nicely done. Fred looks quite impressive standing outside our dining room.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Hello, Anna, that is a good shot of the back of the neck lames. VERY interesting! It argues for the skull and at least the two upper articulations being real. The two holes in the upper lame (people talking about armour are always using the word 'lame' for articulation pieces) would be for a leather strap designed to control the articulation(s). I am wondering if the two top lames both have a pair of holes; the holes on the lower lame could be hidden by the lowest lame in your photo. Now you need to lift the front of the neck, too, basically where helm sort of divides in half at the sides, so the whole front lifts away and you can get the camera closer to the skull. It's a great pity the attachment size is so small; you need to fill the frame of the photo with the interior of the skull, so that we can see the hammer marks as well as possible.

[William P]

regarding the pauldrones, are they SUPPOSED to be symmerical?
by that i mean do you NEED to have that assymetrical pauldron in order to use a couched lance?

oh and here is an example of what is supposedly a 16th C flemish composite armour

http://www.faganarms.com/A-Flemish-Composite-...9-725.aspx
since some of you guys said the helmet looked maybe moe flemish as opposed to italian or german. i can see the similarities between the suits.

noably this armour doesnt have an accomodations for holding a couched lance either. which is VERY wierd considering that suit is apparently made for the tournement as well..
very odd.

[Anna M B]

I went back and had a look at the inside of the helmet. The articulation below the one that has two holes was hard to get to and I couldn't see or feel any holes, however, on the outside if you look, there is one hole. I've taken a photo of this so you can see. This area of the helmet has obviously been fiddled with. Someone has attached a cone to hold a plume. It isn't very well done and not very straight. If you look at the articulations, you can see the edge just by the hole is a bit damaged but the edge has been shaped in between the pattern work. The two articulations above it also carry the same edging, though it's not all that visible. I've also tried to take a photo with the helmet completely open as you suggested, though I couldn't get any closer than this without losing detail. It just looks fuzzy if I try to take a closer shot.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Ah, here it is! I finally found the old photo I took of a helm in the Royal Armouries (U.K.). This is what I have been thinking of.