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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 2:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
which is funny, i one said that continually that what i saw was a highlight of roman efficiancy and power was the fact that they, were one of the ONLY armies in history aside from the chinese, to equip nearly their entire army infantry and cavalry and even archers (maybe) with metal armour, and helmets in those sorts of massive numbers
no other army before, or since then has been able to match that feat as far as i know

I'm pretty sure that the Assyrians equipped at least as large a percentage of its army with metal armour as the Romans. The Chinese mainly used leather/hide, not metal, for its rank and file. By the end of the Warring States period they had hunted the Asian rhinoceros to extinction because of the need for armour.

Quote:
and what is the difference in terms of subtracted pieces, between full 3/4 and half armours?


Thigh armour

Half plate covers the torso and abdomen
3/4 plate also covers the thighs
Full plate covers all of the leg.
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Gary Teuscher




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 8:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
By the end of the Warring States period they had hunted the Asian rhinoceros to extinction because of the need for armour.


Interesting, the Rhinoceros hide armour. Ideal for armour I guess, very thick hided animals.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

According to The Chou li, there were different grades of rhinoceros hide armor:
"The armorers (han jÍn) make the cuirasses (kia). Those made from the hide of the two-horned rhinoceros (si) consist of seven layers of hide; those made from the hide of the single-horned rhinoceros (se) consist of six layers. Those made from a combination of both hides consist of five layers. The first endure a hundred years; the second, two hundred; the third, three hundred."
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Ben Bouchard




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sounds insanely thick and heavy!
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William P




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
William P wrote:
which is funny, i one said that continually that what i saw was a highlight of roman efficiancy and power was the fact that they, were one of the ONLY armies in history aside from the chinese, to equip nearly their entire army infantry and cavalry and even archers (maybe) with metal armour, and helmets in those sorts of massive numbers
no other army before, or since then has been able to match that feat as far as i know

I'm pretty sure that the Assyrians equipped at least as large a percentage of its army with metal armour as the Romans. The Chinese mainly used leather/hide, not metal, for its rank and file. By the end of the Warring States period they had hunted the Asian rhinoceros to extinction because of the need for armour.

Quote:
and what is the difference in terms of subtracted pieces, between full 3/4 and half armours?


Thigh armour

Half plate covers the torso and abdomen
3/4 plate also covers the thighs
Full plate covers all of the leg.

my understanding was that all of the legions has some form of armour, and most if not all the legionary infantry had armour aew elents like light cavalry and skirmishers might not have had them, but were still looking i think at roughly a ate of 75-85% armoured troops
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 11:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Combatants in an Assyrian army would be at least that percentage. Archers were covered on long-sleeved iron scale corselets that reach at least the knees. Spearmen and shield bearers had shorter iron scale corselets. Charioteers and their drivers had iron or bronze scale armour. They were the first truly iron-age military power.
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sat 17 Dec, 2011 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Combatants in an Assyrian army would be at least that percentage. Archers were covered on long-sleeved iron scale corselets that reach at least the knees. Spearmen and shield bearers had shorter iron scale corselets. Charioteers and their drivers had iron or bronze scale armour. They were the first truly iron-age military power.


Quote:
They were the first truly iron-age military power.


I agree that the Assyrians where among the first iron age power to make large scale use of iron in armour and weapons but I would add the Hittites as having an almost monopoly on using iron very early on and mostly kept the secret(s) of iron production for a good long while.

Maybe the Assyrians are the first to equip a large percentage of their troops with extensive armour coverage ?

( Note: Not arguing just expanding on what you wrote Dan and asking questions. Big Grin Cool )

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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Dec, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Hittites seem to have used mainly leather scale armour. Bronze was worn by the elite. I haven't come across any evidence of Hittite armour made from iron.
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Philip G.




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Dec, 2011 3:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the reason for the decline of the so called Lorica Segmentata is in some ways analogue to the rise of plate armour in the renaissance and late medieval ages; just the other way around.
Mail didnt replace LS because it was superior to it, neither was LS necesserely superior to mail.


Producing mail is very time-consuming but does not require sophisticated forging and infrastructure.

The segmentata on the other hand required a certain grade of industrialisation, good smithing techniques and logistics for providing bits to replace broken armour. But if such technology and structure are available, it is cheaper and faster to produce, than mail. (Think of civil war england, were simple breastplates were bloody cheap, and buff coats really expensive)

Lorica Segmentata was used and at its peak when industry and economy of the empire where at its height.
As the empire degenerated, mail became the cheaper thing again.

So, just like with the rise of plate armour, its an economic issue, not an arms race.
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