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Christopher B Lellis
Location: Houston, Texas Joined: 01 Dec 2012
Posts: 268
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 Posted: Tue 09 Jul, 2013 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Iain Norman wrote: | As the owner of the takouba.org website I should probably add a few comments (thanks for linking it by the way Jonathan, I'm always happy to see it's useful). 
Yes, Timo is correct, the influence is more likely to be Arab and Mamluk with respect to hilt of the kaskara. The main source for arms and armour flowing into Sudan was via Egypt. On the takouba side it's a similar story but with different geographical influences. For more on straight bladed Islamic sword this is a nice thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17520
Of course from a certain perspective there was European influence, in so much as many of the blades originated there. Both 19th century trade blade and blades from earlier periods as well.
Both kaskara and takouba are still made to this day, mainly as an accessory of traditional dress and for ceremonial use. As Henrik points out, modern steel sources are typically leaf springs from vehicles. The railway steel is also true - the British rail line to Khartoum was completed in 1899.
It's nice to see these under discussion here. Both are rather long lived types and give a fascinating window into African kingdoms such as Sennar, Darfur, the Hausa kingdoms and Bornu.
Here's a nice example held by the British Museum and attributed to a Darfur ruler from the mid 18th century.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/online_t...sword.aspx
I'm also attaching a neat image of a couple of cavalrymen from Kordofan circa 1910. |
Do you know how much these swords weigh and what their center of balance is? I'm curious to know how they handle.
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Iain Norman
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jul, 2013 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher B Lellis wrote: |
Do you know how much these swords weigh and what their center of balance is? I'm curious to know how they handle. |
I can't get you POB figures at the moment as I'm away from the bulk of my collection at the moment. However, to give you a sense of weights, in the attached photo the weights are as follows from the top down:
1. Triple fullered blade and brass hilt - about 720g
2. Triple fullered blade and brass pommel, leather grip and metal guard - about 710g
3. Brass hilt with wide blade - about 785g
4. Brass hilt with brass forte plates and wide blade - about 885g or 890g
So as you can see the weight does vary somewhat significantly. A few others I have might weigh even a bit more.
In terms of how the swords handle... One thing to keep in mind is the intended style of use. Takouba are almost invariably sharpened only for the last 2/3rds of the blade and the style exhibited in surviving sword dances/rituals is extremely tip oriented. Still, I've encountered a range of characteristics with takouba, some are quite tip heavy, others have much more substantial pommels. As a general rule, older swords are much better balanced. However they don't necessarily handle in a similar manner to European weapons - despite some of the visual similarities.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jul, 2013 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Timo and Iain,
Thank you for your replies!
Jonathan
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Iain Norman
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| Posted: Thu 11 Jul, 2013 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | Timo and Iain,
Thank you for your replies!
Jonathan |
My pleasure! Personally, my main interest is really around the Hausa areas and not the more stereotypical Tuareg swords. So anything Fulani/Hausa/Nupe I find really interesting. Not sure if it would be of interest, but quite a good book on the period is available online: http://www.webpulaaku.net/defte/hasJohnston/toc.html Focus is on the Fulani empire of Sokoto.
Since I keep littering this thread with swords, I may as well add another that's one of my more recent additions that I'm particularly fond of.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Thu 11 Jul, 2013 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Iain,
Thank you for the link. I have an interest in the Niger Sudan Campaign of 1897, a campaign carried out by the Royal Niger Company under the command of young British officers and the Royal Niger Constabulary (mostly Hausas) against Bida, Illorin, and Nupe. I was curious about the types of weapons the Fulani would have used against the small RNC force.
Thanks again!
Jonathan
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Iain Norman
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| Posted: Fri 12 Jul, 2013 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | Iain,
Thank you for the link. I have an interest in the Niger Sudan Campaign of 1897, a campaign carried out by the Royal Niger Company under the command of young British officers and the Royal Niger Constabulary (mostly Hausas) against Bida, Illorin, and Nupe. I was curious about the types of weapons the Fulani would have used against the small RNC force.
Thanks again!
Jonathan |
Hi Jonathan,
In that case, I'd highly recommend "Yoruba Warfare in the Nineteenth Century" by Ajayi J F Ade and Smith Robert. It includes an interesting essay on the Egba army in 1861 by Captain Jones, a British Officer.
All the best,
Iain
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Fri 12 Jul, 2013 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks again, Iain! And I was wrong above--I meant to say Egbon, Bida, and Ilorin.
Jonathan
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Henrik Zoltan Toth
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| Posted: Sun 14 Jul, 2013 11:10 am Post subject: |
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A question about the armour of the riders above:
How common was that twisted scarf over the chainmail??
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Iain Norman
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jul, 2013 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote: | A question about the armour of the riders above:
How common was that twisted scarf over the chainmail?? |
The cloth strap across the chest seems to be a fairly common period element. See below for an unarmored man exhibiting something similar.
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Christopher Lee
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jul, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Just interested to know if the Mahdists used two handed swords? Or was this an invention of Victorian painters and illustrators?
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Iain Norman
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jul, 2013 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher Lee wrote: | | Just interested to know if the Mahdists used two handed swords? Or was this an invention of Victorian painters and illustrators? |
The answer to this is pretty much two fold. The short version is no - they didn't. The kaskara is a single handed weapon usually used in conjunction with a shield.
The long answer is, sometimes, Baker's "Nile Tributaries Of Abyssinia" from 1861 describes mounted elephant hunters wrapping about 9 inches of the blade in leather cord to allow for two handed use. But this seems to be a rather specialized case.
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Christopher Lee
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jul, 2013 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Iain Norman wrote: | The answer to this is pretty much two fold. The short version is no - they didn't. The kaskara is a single handed weapon usually used in conjunction with a shield.
The long answer is, sometimes, Baker's "Nile Tributaries Of Abyssinia" from 1861 describes mounted elephant hunters wrapping about 9 inches of the blade in leather cord to allow for two handed use. But this seems to be a rather specialized case. |
Ok, thanks for that. Interesting. To your knowledge, were there any north african cultures that did use two handed swords?
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Christopher Lee
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jul, 2013 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| Iain Norman wrote: | The answer to this is pretty much two fold. The short version is no - they didn't. The kaskara is a single handed weapon usually used in conjunction with a shield.
The long answer is, sometimes, Baker's "Nile Tributaries Of Abyssinia" from 1861 describes mounted elephant hunters wrapping about 9 inches of the blade in leather cord to allow for two handed use. But this seems to be a rather specialized case. |
Ok, thanks for that. Interesting. To your knowledge, were there any north african cultures that did use two handed swords?
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Iain Norman
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jul, 2013 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher Lee wrote: |
Ok, thanks for that. Interesting. To your knowledge, were there any north african cultures that did use two handed swords? |
Off the top of my head, not really, within North Africa you have types like the kaskara, takouba, flyssa, nimcha and various styles of saif. However all of these are single handed weapons.
Getting into why there aren't any would be quite the topic!
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jul, 2013 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Iain Norman wrote: | | Christopher Lee wrote: |
Ok, thanks for that. Interesting. To your knowledge, were there any north african cultures that did use two handed swords? |
Off the top of my head, not really, within North Africa you have types like the kaskara, takotakoubayssa, nimcnimcha various styles of saif. However all of these are single handed weapons.
Getting into why there aren't any would be quite the topic! |
Two handed swords are a rather rare occurrence anyway, and they appeared mostly as a weapon of rather heavily armored troops, so no wonder Africa has none...
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Iain Norman
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jul, 2013 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: |
Two handed swords are a rather rare occurrence anyway, and they appeared mostly as a weapon of rather heavily armored troops, so no wonder Africa has none... |
That's certainly a factor. However I'd be quick to counter the idea that in the context of the Sudan and the Sahel in general troops were not armoured as a rule. In fact the heavy cavalry used maille, mainly imported from Egypt, as well as very effective quilted cotton armour and even full iron cuirass in some cases (Bornu empire). Now this was usually restricted to the cavalry and the average foot soldier relied on their shield.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jul, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for the quick answer, Mr. Norman!
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Iain Norman
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| Posted: Sat 27 Jul, 2013 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote: | | Thank you for the quick answer, Mr. Norman! |
No problem! I thought it might be interesting for this thread to show a recent kaskara of mine. Latten inlaid running wolf and the "fly" mark stamped underneath each langet.
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Christopher B Lellis
Location: Houston, Texas Joined: 01 Dec 2012
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Sat 27 Jul, 2013 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Iain Norman wrote: | | Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote: | | Thank you for the quick answer, Mr. Norman! |
No problem! I thought it might be interesting for this thread to show a recent kaskara of mine. Latten inlaid running wolf and the "fly" mark stamped underneath each langet. |
I like that sword, it reminds me of my Albion steward. It's like a homemade version of it, in looks anyway. Handling I have no idea, it's probably quite different.
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Iain Norman
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| Posted: Sun 28 Jul, 2013 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher B Lellis wrote: |
I like that sword, it reminds me of my Albion steward. It's like a homemade version of it, in looks anyway. Handling I have no idea, it's probably quite different. |
Thanks Christopher, the Steward of course is a geometry from an earlier period but yes there is some similarity. This particular blade was almost certainly made in Solingen.
In terms of handling, with all kaskara the lack of a substantial pommel means they tend to be somewhat blade heavy. Still, this is a light sword and the blade is agile.
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This is a standard topic