| Author |
Message |
|
Steve Fabert
|
|
  |
 |
|
Jeremiah Swanger
|
 Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2004 8:36 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Ooh, beautiful!
Which century saw the use of bellows-style helms?
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
|
|
 |
|
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2004 8:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think I pulled a muscle when my head snapped forward from seeing that picture! That Whiterose sallet is beautiful!
Here's a thread from a while back of a harness Patrick Thaden made for James Byrnes, complete with a bellows faced visor.
|
|
 |
|
Brian W. Rainey
Location: McHenry, IL Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2004 10:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeremiah Swanger wrote: | Ooh, beautiful!
Which century saw the use of bellows-style helms? |
I wil dig up some information on this in the next couple of days... there is an excellent article on German armour written by J.G. Mann and published in the Journal of the Antiwuaries Society of London.
I am extremely tired and blurry right now or I could probably pull more off the top of my head.. if I could find it...
Brian W. Rainey
Armour Research Society
Journal of the Armour Research Society
brian@armourresearchsociety.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
Steve Fabert
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Dec, 2004 5:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeremiah Swanger wrote: |
Which century saw the use of bellows-style helms? |
I think this particular style is from the end of the 15th/beginning of the 16th Century. The underlying sallet is certainly a late 15th Century style, and I assume the visor is not mismatched to it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
|
| Posted: Wed 15 Dec, 2004 6:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Steven's got it . Last decade of the 15th century and the first three or four of the 15th although oddly enough the I believe US Army came up with either at the end of WWI or right after an "experimantal" helmet that was a bellows visored sallet
painted green with summer finish .
|
|
|
|
|
|
David R. Glier
|
| Posted: Thu 16 Dec, 2004 7:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Having wanted to use one myself a few years back, I did some research. The earlies possible date we have for an example is 1490-95 in... Italy? I think it was Italy. Anyway, it was twenty years too late for me and in the wrong part of Europe to boot. I am ignorant of the cutoff date, as I was uninterested in the later periods at the time. Ah, the foolishness of youth. 
Brian: While I agree with you about this particular helmet and SCA combat, and about the shoddyness and brute modernity of contstruction, I would caution you on the... shall we say, the "zealousness" of your position.  I was reminded of an anthropologist aquaintance who was adamant that there is only one right way to use an adze, because everyone in the vilage she studied used it that way. In short, guard yourself against coming off as an ivory tower academic. This entire field was created by hobbiests, is sustained by hobbiests, and has its future in hobbiests. If we alienate the everyman in our zeal to prove ourselves to traditional academia, what purpose will we be serving?
From my perspective -a perspctive I've argued, pleaded and beat agains the heads of Historians and Archaeologists in my department- it's better and more useful to argue, persuade, convince, and gain converts down amongst us unwashed masses than it is to preach to the choir on the mountaintops.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jack McGregor Lynn
|
| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 3:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Brian W. Rainey wrote: | | Jack McGregor Lynn wrote: | | As for accuracy I'd disagree with the general consensus and say that the helm, where not exactly like historical counterparts, is within armorers license in its degree of variation. |
You bring up an interesting subject. What is "armorer's license". I would certainly like to know. Most of the reputable armourer's I know do not really take license with the general shape of the helm as that is the defining element of the helm.
|
What I meant was armourers license in a purely asthetic sense. I agree with the general consesus that that helm is a POS; I posted more in the hope that someone would prove me wrong. My concept of armourers license is that basically, a piece does not need to be exactly like any historical piece in order to be legitimate. From what I could see, where this helm displayed much less quality in way of production value, it was quite clearly of a certain class of helmet. It might have been only suitable for display but I felt that the attack made on it that it was completely historically inaccurate in design was a bit unfair. Where it won't hold up to the standards of helms four times as expensive in terms of asthetic appeal or functionality, I think that the manufacture could get away on the excuse of it being a cheap display helm.
Also, it seems like a lot of people attacked it simply FOR BEING CHEAP. I think that, where price can give an idea of quality and price of production, we should not judge products simply on how much they cost. Perhaps I am biased because I really can't afford swords and armor in the mass or quality that many of you guys can.
What does really peeve me about the helm is that it was listed as wearable w/out much in the way of other details. That seems a bit deceptive.
Last edited by Jack McGregor Lynn on Sat 18 Dec, 2004 6:55 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jack McGregor Lynn
|
| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
sorry for repeatedly misspelling piece. I obviously wasn't really awake
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
|
 |
|
|
Steve Fabert
|
| Posted: Sat 18 Dec, 2004 7:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
The bellows style visor seems to have lasted beyond the decades when the sallet was popular. Here's a repro showing one on a later style armet or close helmet. This is a decorator item that was offered at such a low price that I bought it on the spot. When it arrives I will provide details of its workmanship.
Compare this mass produced item with the work of Patrick Thaden: http://www.thadenarmory.com/tempport/pages/P4290019.htm
 Attachment: 10.93 KB
Attachment: 11.86 KB
Attachment: 11.17 KB
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jack McGregor Lynn
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jack McGregor Lynn
|
| Posted: Sat 18 Dec, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
and it's not just that. They have many of the items wholesale armor sells for dramatically higher prices. AND they have a tag "very functional" under the helmet in question. If a company is going to sell cheap crap it should be cheap.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Steve Fabert
|
| Posted: Tue 21 Dec, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steve Fabert wrote: | Here's a repro showing one on a later style armet or close helmet. This is a decorator item that was offered at such a low price that I bought it on the spot. When it arrives I will provide details of its workmanship.
|
Bellows visor helm arrived today. I am impressed at its apparent functionality and clean execution, especially for the price of 70 dollars. Edges are smooth, surfaces are moderately polished as I prefer them. All parts fit well together. It fits my display mannequin perfectly. The external circumference of the neck opening is only 18 inches, so it is probably not wearable by modern Americans. But as a decorator piece it's a bargain.
If you are interested in owning one you can find it at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...3&rd=1
|
|
|
|
|
|
W. R. Reynolds
Location: Ramona, CA Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 123
|
| Posted: Sun 05 Jun, 2005 11:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
A little late getting to this thread, but here is a picture of an original. Photo scanned from Howard Curtis's book "2,500 Years of European Helmets" . The piece resides in The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 50.160 a. Formerly of the Bashford Dean Collection.
Attachment: 117.55 KB
Bill
"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cole Sibley
|
| Posted: Sun 05 Jun, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Definitely one of my favorite periods of armour as well (until I discovered that I will NEVER be able to construct something of that quality for myself). I was under the impression that this was a historic example as well:
However, now I am unable to locate the source (I thought it was myArmoury, but I'm unable to find it now). Apologies if I'm mistaken.
|
|
|
|
|
|
W. R. Reynolds
Location: Ramona, CA Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 123
|
| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hard to get a feel for the helmet. Looks like the visor is pushed part way up due to it's position on the flat surface. Should be on a mount of some kind. Bringing the visor down would give us a look at the occularia.
Bill
"No matter who wins the rat race.......they are still a rat."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ryan A. C.
|
| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 6:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
oops! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic
