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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Free-style Rondel Dagger         Reply with quote

I won't hide from the community that of all five essential late Medieval and early Renaissance daggers (Ballock, Baselard, Quillon, Ear and Rondel daggers) my most beloved type is exactly the Rondel dagger.

The "Free-style" in the name of this project means that the weapon is not a replica of any particular one, but it's my attempt to work in the style of the originals. It's my own design of something that SHOULD be once, but not what exactly WAS. I know some of the mistakes already made, but please, feel free to comment any other you find.

Well, this dagger wasn't born under a lucky star. The blade itself was made in 2008, but was always surpassed by other projects. As such old item, it bears all the features of my less knowledge then - and the main mistake here is the threaded tang.
The blade and parts of the hilt just after the heat-treatment (note the guard is still a simple disk)



The initial assembly



And after the blade was sanded and polished - the guard already is hollow-ground octagon.


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like that....a lot. Don't apologize for the threaded pom.....With a tang like that, I don't see it being an issue to even consider. Did I say I like that....A LOT.....?..................McM
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Daniel Wallace




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct, 2013 9:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i like seeing historically 'inspired' projects as much as seeing a spot on reproduction, this tends to be what i do as well, although when my work it done it usually doesn't look like it could fit in the period.

i can't see the threads giving you any issue some lock tight of even epoxy on the threads can make a lasting fitting.

is the grip finished or are you going to turn it down more?
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, one of the reasons this dagger is so long under construction, is the lasting lack of a clear concept what I want to achieve as a result at the end.
During these years I passed through several variants, some with sub-variants, but none of them really satisfied me. And this endured until recently - about the time when Matt Corbin shared with us (this thread http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=28929 ) the incredible Carl Koppeschaar's collection of arms and armours photos (link http://carlkop.home.xs4all.nl/armsandarmour/ ). There I found the wonderful rondel dagger specimen, once belonged to Emperor Maximilian I (this http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/8.../lightbox/ and several other images), which finally gave me the push I wanted.

My grip under development - the groves are outlined and some of them are roughly cut off with chisels



And after all chisel work was done - I also added two pieces of black buffalo horn on both sides of the wood


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Oct, 2013 3:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The rear part of the grip at close



The groves in the upper section are already re-worked with appropriate grinding stones, while these in the middle one are still waiting. The black lines in them are intended to help me - they easily show me where I still have work to do and where it's already finished.
The grip after all groves were ground with stones and sanded with a DIY flap-wheel.



Forgot to mention - the wood used in the grip is Cornus, or as it's more commonly known - dogwood.
And at the end - the front horn piece after it was rounded and grooved with matching groves.



The rear piece also got such shape and groves recently.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Raymond Deancona




PostPosted: Tue 22 Oct, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't wait to see the finished piece! It looks fantastic in "project" form. I always love to see your work.
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Malcolm A




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PostPosted: Wed 23 Oct, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello
When I first found myArmoury, I only really liked swords, and that basically meant one handed ones circa 1066AD.
Since then I have broadened my likes and rondels really sit high on my WOW list.

This one really catches my eye as a super design; absolutely great lines and the grip is cool as an iceberg.

Is it just my eyes playing tricks or does the blade look a lot like a Fairbairn Sykes Fighting Knife of WW2 vintage?
Whether it does or not, the blade is awesome...

I look forward to seeing the final product.

It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Wed 23 Oct, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris, the design and carving of the wooden and horn handle is very attractive and I think it should also give a very secure grip: The usual high quality work I have come to expect from you. Big Grin Cool
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Wed 23 Oct, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the positive feed-backs, guys!

#Malcolm
Although the blade really bears some resemblance with Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife, there are a lot of differences between them


Image taken from Wikipedia

My blade has a short ricasso, the Fairbairn–Sykes shows quite acute profile taper.
Actually, I've never thought of F-S, when making my blade. I took a scrap piece of steel, and made what I then thought (in 2008) would be the best shape, profile and distal taper and cross-section .

#Jean
The grip is really very secure. I only wishI was left the groves with a greater inclination (closer to the groves of Emperor Maximilian dagger)

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Malcolm A




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Oct, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Boris,
Looking at it again more closely, I see that there are quite a few differences between the rondel and the F-S knife as you rightly say.
I think what threw me was the fact the the original Pattern 1 F-S knives did have a small ricasso on them that was then removed when the Pattern 2 F-S knives were made.

All that aside, your design and workmanship is excellent; it totally rocks!
Please keep us updated with your project as it evolves!
Regards,
Malcolm
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Oct, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Between the wood and horn pieces I wanted to insert brass separators (or spacers)

Both of them after the initial cutting and filing



and after the precise fitting to the groves of the grip



If someone wonders what does the pair of tiny holes on each separator serve for - let me explain. As these plates rotate fairly easy around the axis of the tang (especially the rear one, the forward is restrained to some degree by the cross-section of the tang), I use a pair of fixing needles (in this case - ordinary nails with cut-off heads) to "lock" them firmly. This helps me to anchor the separators in order to make the precise fitting.
As each grove runs from the forward horn piece through the wood to the rear horn, I also have matching holes on the horn. This will help me in the future when I'll assemble the whole grip - nothing will rotate, because the needles would hold the details firmly.
And BTW - the third hole on the right separator was a mistake Big Grin

And the whole grip - you could see the difference here. The needles hold the forward assembly aligned, while the rear separator and horn piece deviate from the alignment, because they don't have needles installed.


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Daniel Wallace




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Oct, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

that's a neat little detail there, Boris your going the extra mile, leaving nothing simple.
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Oct, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Wallace wrote:
...... leaving nothing simple.


Yep! Big Grin
Nothing simple, but secure.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Nov, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

After some wondering and several discounted ideas (hmmm, well - this took me a couple of weeks), I finally have some almost clear idea about the decoration of the rondels.

The rear rondel after today's intervention (sorry for the bad quality of the pictures - they were made with artificial light, but not flash; when both rondels are ready I'll provide far better images)

The back surface



The floral design was cut with engraving tool by hand, the semi-conical "arrows" - with "Dremel", although I had an option to cut them with a file.
The circular holes will be filled with copper inlays; I have a strong desire to give some volume to the flower - I want to cut in a semi-conical pattern the areas between the dotted lines.

The rim



And finally - the inner (to the grip) surface


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Nov, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow--that's really going to look great! Love the detail level
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Daniel Wallace




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Nov, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

copper inlays, i can't wait to see that. copper just pops due to its natural color, and as it gets a little pink patina over time - it stands out from the metal around it.
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Nov, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Literally, minutes before I hit the road for the last event of the season, let me show the front rondel.
It keeps the ideas, established with the rear one, just the design is simpler (and the pictures are better).

Side to the blade



Inner side to the grip



And the rim


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Nov, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quite logically, this project is also coming to its end.
The most challenging (apart from the groves at the grip) was to cut the recessed areas of the floral design. Well, combining several Dremel bits and working patiently, I managed to do this.



The recessed surfaces are intentionally left un-sanded - although I've tried, it was quite hard to do this. Also, I think these unfinished recessed areas would be in great contrast with the rest of the rondel.
The copper inlays were also added. As you might see, four of them (also two of the front rondel) need to be re-placed.

The problematic copper inlays were changed and the last test assembly made - all details are in place, the fixing needles hold everything aligned well



View from the rear rondel



Here the nut is unfinished yet - I still need the slots to screw it during the final assembly. After that the nut will be re-worked.

And view from the front rondel



After that the rondels were re-sanded once again very well (I decided not to polish them - that's I why I needed very fine polishing). I started with grit #180, then moved to #240, #320 and #400.
After #600 the rondels were heated to approx. 250-300 degrees Celsius - you know the brass (and all copper and copper alloys get some nice oxidation when heated).
The result was this



So, my idea is to keep sanding (already done with grits #800, #1200 and #1500) - all recessed areas would remain darker, the other surfaces would be shining. Although they also will gradually oxidize and tarnish, the contrast between these areas will remain.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Nov, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is looking so very good Boris--I am inspired to finish a few projects of my own. Watching all your project threads is a real treat. Love the in-progress pictures
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Boris Bedrosov




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Nov, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The hilt of the dagger is already glued. Usually, I use slow-drying epoxy to do this job.
Sorry for the bad quality of the pictures - they were taken in cloudy weather, at almost dusk. In anyway, I'll provide better ones (and more), when the scabbard for the dagger is finished.

* over-all view



** the hilt (the grip was waxed)



*** the front rondel with part of the blade



**** the rear rondel with the nut - note it was modified to look like a flower


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"

Tokugawa Ieyasu
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