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Eric S
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 Posted: Wed 12 Mar, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: All riveted Indo-Persian mail |
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| Julio Junco wrote: | I think this mail is welded and riveted rings.
Julio |
Julio that is interesting, if you take away the obvious riveted repair links (the few without a point) you are left with only links with a point. The original links appear to all have an inward point, do you think they were welded with a point instead of being made with welded butted ends as you would normally expect to see with welded links. Why make a link with a point like a riveted link and then weld it instead. Maybe they are riveted and then welded?
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Julio Junco
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| Posted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, Eric
I think they are solid welded rings because I donīt see rivets .With so many rings in the picture, 30-40, we could see some rivet in some ring but I donīt see any.
And more. In the top left we can see an open ring, not like riveted rings with smooth edges. We see jagged edges like an open welded ring. At least I think so.
I dont think these riveted rings were used to repair the hauberk.
We can see about 40 rings in the photo, and there are 8-10 solid rings. Many to be a repair in this zone, back and down.where the rings donīt suffer attrition or knocking.. And 2-3 riveted rings surrounding and holding the cast arsenal mark. In addition, the riveted rings are same thickness, same diameter, the same look as the welded rings, so I think they were made at same time.
Also I see solid rings attached to others. I know it's unusual but perhaps it is easier to do and join a group of welded rings and then join these welded rings to the hauberk with riveted rings. Sounds rare but it is doable and makes work easier if you use welded rings because they are easier or cheaper. It is an idea only but weīll need to see the hauberk looking for a sequence between welded and riveted rings for to know if this idea is true.
Why these inward facing point? I dont know but it could be getting the junction area( I think weaker zone) hangs, never on top or below where the friction is greater. May be.
I hope you can understand my english
Julio
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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The rivets are there. It's just that there is so much wear that they are very difficult to see. The degree of wear suggests that the links were a lot thicker when the armour was actually being used. A lot of material has been lost over the centuries. The point is a result of the way the links are flattened and lapped. Nice photos Eric, many thanks.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Julio Junco
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| Posted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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I wanted say:
"We can see about 40 rings in the photo, and there are 8-10 RIVETED rings. Many to be a repair in this zone"
Yes, Dan. Sure you are right, but I can see the rivet in the riveted rings and none in the "welded rings",with the same centuries.Perhaps in the manufacturing the rivet was absolutely flattened but I doubt it.
Julio
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David Lewis Smith
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| Posted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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In a bucket, in the work shop I have a shirt of mail I bought in Afghanistan. I need an excuse to pull it out. I need to get it in some sort of display case.
I also have some sheets on the back of an Afghan helm as well.
David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| David Lewis Smith wrote: | In a bucket, in the work shop I have a shirt of mail I bought in Afghanistan. I need an excuse to pull it out. I need to get it in some sort of display case.
I also have some sheets on the back of an Afghan helm as well. |
David..."in a bucket"???? Well lets see some pictures (clear ones) so we can see what you have there.
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David Lewis Smith
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| Posted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | David Lewis Smith wrote: | In a bucket, in the work shop I have a shirt of mail I bought in Afghanistan. I need an excuse to pull it out. I need to get it in some sort of display case.
I also have some sheets on the back of an Afghan helm as well. |
David..."in a bucket"???? Well lets see some pictures (clear ones) so we can see what you have there. |
yup, in a bucket, covered on olive oil.
David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 14 Mar, 2014 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | The rivets are there. It's just that there is so much wear that they are very difficult to see. The degree of wear suggests that the links were a lot thicker when the armour was actually being used. A lot of material has been lost over the centuries. The point is a result of the way the links are flattened and lapped. Nice photos Eric, many thanks. |
After looking this over thoroughly I agree that the pointed links are all riveted and the non pointed links are repair links. This is not the first time I have seen mail that is for lack of a better term seems to have been "burnished" by wear to the point that you can not see any distinguishing characteristics of the lap and rivet.
On another thread it was mentioned (by Mart?) that some older Ottoman mail was said to have been all riveted, this appears to be one such example. The non pointed links are not placed in any noticeable pattern, and you can see one link which is slightly damaged / twisted, some links were probably damaged and replaced by the non pointed links during its working lifetime. I can see no reason that links would have been prepared in the necessary manner for riveting only to be welded.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 16 Mar, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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I just got back from a trip to Florence Italy were several members of the samurai armor forum met for a conference and a visit to the Stibbert Museum. Francesco Civita, the curator of the Japanese Section of the Stibbert graciously allowed us to rummage through the collection, he had several very old and valuable samurai helmets out on tables for inspection. Quite a few hidden treasures were spotted in the dark recesses of the Japanese section. There is no way to adequately describe the museum, it was formerly the home and private collection of Frederick Stibbert from the 1800s to the early 1900s.
Several dark and dimly lit rooms were full of armor and weapons, some out in the open on the floor, others in glass cases and on the walls. I asked Francesco if he had any examples of Japanese armor with riveted mail, he led me and several other participants over to a group of life like mannequins completely equipped in samurai armor and showed us one in particular. The arm, shin and thigh armor were all composed of riveted mail. After closely examining the mail the conclusion was that it was not European or Indo-Persian mail, here are a couple of images.
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Sun 16 Mar, 2014 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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To my eye, that Japanese mail looks significantly different. What a huge overlap! And it looks like those rivets are more like peened nails than stamped or clenched rivets. Very interesting. Do you (or anyone else) have any information about how well the butted mail of theirs held up in combat?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sun 16 Mar, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of images from the Dominican Republic:
This from the Museo la Isabela showing butted brass rings from Columbus' settlement along with a brigandine plate. Deagan & Cruxent Fig. 9.22 also shows some line drawings of brass mail with corroded iron rivets, as well as brass rings with brass rivets attached to corroded iron rings. I'm not certain what to make of these butted ring chains, which appear in some number from the Mary Rose as well.
http://www.chichilticale.com/22travels.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=twI0PjfqdGYC...mp;f=false
The second image is from the Museo de las Casas Reales. Since this museum has a number of reproduction weapons and armor, it's almost certain that this mail is not excavated, but purchased. Its similarity to the Met's Turkish shirt 36.25.33 is eerie. This double riveted example is almost certainly Turkish as well.
http://www.chichilticale.com/64travels.htm
http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-t...0534?img=0
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 17 Mar, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Kai Lawson wrote: | | To my eye, that Japanese mail looks significantly different. What a huge overlap! And it looks like those rivets are more like peened nails than stamped or clenched rivets. Very interesting. Do you (or anyone else) have any information about how well the butted mail of theirs held up in combat? |
Kai Japanese mail is an interesting subject in general, no one I know has ever seen any information on who made it, or how it was made etc, there are no prints or drawings etc that I am aware of showing it being made despite being used continuously for hundreds of years.
As far as Japanese butted mail goes it was used for a very long time, it seems to have worked for its intended purpose or it would have been replaced as there were known alternate defenses.
Here is a pair of suneate (shin armor), these are very simple, a cloth backing with butted mail sewn to the cloth, when closely examined you can see the butted ends are touching, when I attempt to pull the ends of a link apart I found it almost impossible, using small metal tools I applied pressure in opposite directions but I was unable to bend the wire and when released the link returned to its original shape with the ends of the link still touching. I think the wire has to be some sort of steel, to deform the link I would have had to apply an enormous amount of pressure.
Not all Japanese mail (and armor) was the same, in feudal Japan you got what you could afford, rich samurai could be almost invulnerable, poor samurai bought what they could afford or wore what their lord gave them, it is impossible to tell Japanese armor made with steel from armor made with iron but the quality of the metal you could afford made a big difference.
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B. Pogue
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 17 Mar, 2014 7:23 am Post subject: Mail Hauberk in Nuremberg |
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I took the photos below on a recent trip to Germany at the arms collection of the Imperial castle of Nuremberg. The placard as well is below. At the time I was pretty skeptical as to the authenticity of the mail due to the condition not only of the individual rings but in the shirt overall. If its for sure a reproduction let me know and I'll take down the photos!
Blake
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 17 Mar, 2014 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Mail Hauberk in Nuremberg |
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| B. Pogue wrote: | I took the photos below on a recent trip to Germany at the arms collection of the Imperial castle of Nuremberg. The placard as well is below. At the time I was pretty skeptical as to the authenticity of the mail due to the condition not only of the individual rings but in the shirt overall. If its for sure a reproduction let me know and I'll take down the photos!
Blake |
Blake, do you have a picture of the entire hauberk, from what I can see it looks like authentic riveted mail.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 17 Mar, 2014 8:38 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Eric and the identification card that this is likely a German shirt, though I would lean towards the early 14th rather than the 15th century due to apparent demi-riveted construction. There seems to be a watershed around the rivets, and the one missing rivet in the second photo appears to be slit for a wedge rivet. There may be further informational cues like signet rings or armory seals, like the one affixed to this Nuremberg shirt sold at Christies.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/arms-armor...tails.aspx
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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B. Pogue
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 17 Mar, 2014 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Mail Hauberk in Nuremberg |
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| Eric S wrote: |
Blake, do you have a picture of the entire hauberk, from what I can see it looks like authentic riveted mail. |
Some how I did not manage to get a full shot...
Thanks for the feedback. This was only one of two pieces of complete mail in their small arms collection. Will most likely return next year and spend more time with these pieces (I was spending too much time taking photos of swords...)
Blake
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 17 Mar, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | the one missing rivet in the second photo appears to be slit for a wedge rivet. |
Mart, is this what you saw?
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B. Pogue
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 17 Mar, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Here are full frame shots of the same rivet hole. Sorry about the quality had to shoot at a high ISO.
Blake
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 17 Mar, 2014 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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That would be the ring in question. Sometimes photos of the ends of sleeves, bottom hem, or neckline also show the underside of the ring, where the rivet form might be better evaluated.
It's hard to find a mail shirt without one failed or missing rivet for examination.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Felix Kunze
Location: Bonn, Germany Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Mon 17 Mar, 2014 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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This may be the mailshirt from Nuernberg, that was posted earlier. The pictures are not the best and much is obscured by the breastplate covering the body of the shirt. The second shot shows the detail of the shirt`s low collar.
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This is a 
