Erik--would you mind posting a picture or two of some of your new rings? I think many here would love to see them.
| Eric S wrote: |
|
Mac, if you have a way to show the final process of setting the rivet more clearly that would be helpful, I think you have shown everything up to the rivet setting step in a way that anyone can follow. |
I built a new tool for closing the rings. It works OK.....but it's not all it should be. It started of as a crimping tool from "Horrible Freight" http://www.harborfreight.com/9-1-2-half-inch-...36411.html
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...which I modified.
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Here is a ring with the rivet placed in the slit.
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The closing procedure is pretty straightforward. It happens in two stages. The ring is placed in the first "station" in the tool and given a squeeze. This presses the rivet all the way in and gives the back of the ring a bit of curve.
[ Linked Image ][ Linked Image ]
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Then the ring goes to the second "station" in the tool and given another squeeze. This collapses the point of the rivet and any of the surrounding ring material into a nice neat bump.
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The problem with this tool is that it is too bulky to close the rings once they are knitted in. It is not so bad on an edge like here in this pic, but getting at a ring that is already linked with four others is too difficult. I am not quite ready to abandon the overall idea of this tool yet, but I think the next one needs to have the two "stations" closer together.
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Mac
Maybe it would be better to put your "stations"in parallel, something like this tool, it is a plier carpenter modified.
The work area is very narrow so you can knit easily.
Juliio
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The work area is very narrow so you can knit easily.
Juliio
Attachment: 26.19 KBJulio,
Funny you should mention it. I started in on a new tool right after I posted.
The new tool is based on an end nipper from the same economical source as the other. http://www.harborfreight.com/10-heavy-duty-end-nipper-60815.html
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I ground away much of the width, and changed the shape of the jaws a bit to bring bring the working surfaces closer to the pivot.
[ Linked Image ]
The rivet driving station is on one side......
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....and the rivet closing station on the other. One flips the tool over between operations.
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Here are a couple of test rings. I cut these with less "pointy" overlaps because I was having trouble getting the longer points to behave. (so many different problems, and they are all interrelated)
[ Linked Image ]
Mac
Funny you should mention it. I started in on a new tool right after I posted.
The new tool is based on an end nipper from the same economical source as the other. http://www.harborfreight.com/10-heavy-duty-end-nipper-60815.html
[ Linked Image ]
I ground away much of the width, and changed the shape of the jaws a bit to bring bring the working surfaces closer to the pivot.
[ Linked Image ]
The rivet driving station is on one side......
[ Linked Image ]
....and the rivet closing station on the other. One flips the tool over between operations.
[ Linked Image ]
Here are a couple of test rings. I cut these with less "pointy" overlaps because I was having trouble getting the longer points to behave. (so many different problems, and they are all interrelated)
[ Linked Image ]
Mac
Mac, thanks for sharing your secrets.
| Eric S wrote: |
| I am putting some information from a thread on this forum and a thread from another forum together here. Mart posted some information on Wade Allens hauberk M2. ( http://www.allenantiques.com/M-2.html ) It is a long horsemans type with a split up the front and back, all European wedge riveted mail, it has been suggested that the mail is 14th or early 15th (possibly Milanese).
I noticed a similarity between Wade Allens M2 hauberk and three other hauberks that I know of, these were also of the same type with a long split up the front and back. All four have some similarities and differences, it has been suggested that possibly all or some of these hauberks were either made for or sold to the Indo-Persian market. There is evidence of trade between European countries and several Indo-Persian countries in both arms and armor. All four have a long front and back split and a split at the collar, three of the hauberks have similar standing leather collars, all four appear to be made with wedge riveted mail with one of the four having alternating wedge rivets and solid links, two have a wide flat area at the top of the front and back splits which looks typically Indo-Persian. The outer rivet heads on all four hauberks are very worn, to the point that the metal appears to be smooth and the rivet heads look like small rounded bumps instead of being pronounced, showing age and use. So far two of the hauberks have been said to possibly be constructed with Italian mail with a time period ranging from 14th or early 15th century on one to 15th to 16th century for the other, two have no opinions yet on age or origin. Two have been weighed one was 16 lbs, the other 18 lbs. Here are some photographs of the four hauberks along with some detailed images of the links. Wade Allens hauberk M2 is top left. [ Linked Image ] #1. Wade Allens M2, 16 lbs. [ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ] #2. Wedge riveted with alternating solid links, 18 lbs. [ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ] #3. [ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ] #4. [ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ] |
Here are two more examples of the same type of riveted mail hauberks, #5. is round riveted, it does not look like Indo-Persian mail to me, it looks European, #6. appears to be all wedge riveted and European as well.
#5 Round riveted.
[ Linked Image ]
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All wedge riveted.
#6. [ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
| Eric S wrote: |
| Mac, thanks for sharing your secrets. |
You are quite welcome. I have a policy about "secrets". I am willing to share techniques anyone who is interested. On the whole, I give more than I get, but that's OK.
The craftsmen of old had secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
Mac
Eric,
I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799
I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799
| Mart Shearer wrote: |
| Eric,
I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799 |
Mart, here are links to some larger images of hauberk #5. Take a look and let me know what you think after you view the larger images. I do not think the links have an Indo-Persian point after closely examining these images.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/5...56ddfd.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b...05c84c.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f...471d91.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f...5364ab.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d...cea46d.jpg
I finally found an image of the links from a Tibetan armor, it is all riveted, unfortunately no view of the back side of the links.
[ Linked Image ]
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| Mart Shearer wrote: |
| Eric,
I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799 |
The owner of hauberk #5 told me that it is all riveted,.
| Eric S wrote: | ||
Mart, here are links to some larger images of hauberk #5. Take a look and let me know what you think after you view the larger images. I do not think the links have an Indo-Persian point after closely examining these images. http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/5...56ddfd.jpg (all riveted-Mart) http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b...05c84c.jpg (demi-riveted -- Mart) http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f...471d91.jpg (all riveted) http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f...5364ab.jpg (all riveted) http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d...cea46d.jpg (all riveted) |
Sorry Eric, I missed your previous posting, or simply forgot a response. All of the detail photos show all riveted construction except the second one. It could be that the photo got mis-labeled or mis-filed and is from another armor, OR someone could have added pieces of demi-riveted mail to extend the skirting or sleeves of an all riveted shirt. Perhaps the owner can clarify where photo #2 came from?
Interestingly enough, the second photo shows a probable repair or possible tailoring towards the upper left which disrupts the normal demi-riveted pattern. This is necessary in demi-riveted construction when tailoring, but sometimes leads to multiple rows of all riveted rings, or rows which change ring type (solid or riveted) half-way through.
| Mart Shearer wrote: | ||||
Sorry Eric, I missed your previous posting, or simply forgot a response. All of the detail photos show all riveted construction except the second one. It could be that the photo got mis-labeled or mis-filed and is from another armor, OR someone could have added pieces of demi-riveted mail to extend the skirting or sleeves of an all riveted shirt. Perhaps the owner can clarify where photo #2 came from? Interestingly enough, the second photo shows a probable repair or possible tailoring towards the upper left which disrupts the normal demi-riveted pattern. This is necessary in demi-riveted construction when tailoring, but sometimes leads to multiple rows of all riveted rings, or rows which change ring type (solid or riveted) half-way through. |
Mart I was thinking that maybe there was a repair made using a patch of old mail, I recently saw an Indian theta link mail and plate shirt that had a patch of demi riveted mail inserted to repair a hole. I asked for more pictures, still waiting.
Here is something interesting, it looks authentic.
European riveted mail arming sleeves, unknown age and origin. The Royal Armoury (Livrustkammaren) in the Royal Palace, Stockholm, Sweden.
High resolution image. http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/originals/3...8ef3ea.jpg
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http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e...6fce7c.jpg
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European riveted mail arming sleeves, unknown age and origin. The Royal Armoury (Livrustkammaren) in the Royal Palace, Stockholm, Sweden.
High resolution image. http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/originals/3...8ef3ea.jpg
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http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e...6fce7c.jpg
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Possibly some mail with the weave going the wrong way.
Pitt Rivers Museum. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/rpr/index.php/compone...21-54.html
Bigger size. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/rpr/index.php/compone...e=orig.jpg
Pitt Rivers Museum. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/rpr/index.php/compone...21-54.html
Bigger size. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/rpr/index.php/compone...e=orig.jpg
First pic is a fragment described as 'celtic' mail thats on display in Bern and the other some mail attached to a lovely early milanese gauntlet at Sion Castle Museum, Switzerland. Last is a shirt in the same museum, think it was late 15th/early 16th. cant seem to find it in my notes. i have a few more pics I can send if anyone wants.
Griff
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That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them.
| Mart Shearer wrote: |
| That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them. |
[ Linked Image ]
Sadly I was without my decent camera, just iPhone pics so everything depended on the lighting. I'll do some re-sizing on the shirt pics and post up.
I can see some rivets on the mail mitten but couldn't swear to all of them. Also a bit limited at the mo on doing a zoom on that image so if someone wants me to email them the originals, drop me a line. mark@griffinhistorical.com
I can see some rivets on the mail mitten but couldn't swear to all of them. Also a bit limited at the mo on doing a zoom on that image so if someone wants me to email them the originals, drop me a line. mark@griffinhistorical.com
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