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Eric S
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 Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Eric,
I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799 |
The owner of hauberk #5 told me that it is all riveted,.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Eric, I missed your previous posting, or simply forgot a response. All of the detail photos show all riveted construction except the second one. It could be that the photo got mis-labeled or mis-filed and is from another armor, OR someone could have added pieces of demi-riveted mail to extend the skirting or sleeves of an all riveted shirt. Perhaps the owner can clarify where photo #2 came from?
Interestingly enough, the second photo shows a probable repair or possible tailoring towards the upper left which disrupts the normal demi-riveted pattern. This is necessary in demi-riveted construction when tailoring, but sometimes leads to multiple rows of all riveted rings, or rows which change ring type (solid or riveted) half-way through.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: |
Sorry Eric, I missed your previous posting, or simply forgot a response. All of the detail photos show all riveted construction except the second one. It could be that the photo got mis-labeled or mis-filed and is from another armor, OR someone could have added pieces of demi-riveted mail to extend the skirting or sleeves of an all riveted shirt. Perhaps the owner can clarify where photo #2 came from?
Interestingly enough, the second photo shows a probable repair or possible tailoring towards the upper left which disrupts the normal demi-riveted pattern. This is necessary in demi-riveted construction when tailoring, but sometimes leads to multiple rows of all riveted rings, or rows which change ring type (solid or riveted) half-way through. |
Mart I was thinking that maybe there was a repair made using a patch of old mail, I recently saw an Indian theta link mail and plate shirt that had a patch of demi riveted mail inserted to repair a hole. I asked for more pictures, still waiting.
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Eric S
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Len Parker
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: |
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First pic is a fragment described as 'celtic' mail thats on display in Bern and the other some mail attached to a lovely early milanese gauntlet at Sion Castle Museum, Switzerland. Last is a shirt in the same museum, think it was late 15th/early 16th. cant seem to find it in my notes. i have a few more pics I can send if anyone wants.
Griff
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Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 11:28 am Post subject: |
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That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them. |
Mark, its hard to tell but is the mail on this mitten riveted?
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Sadly I was without my decent camera, just iPhone pics so everything depended on the lighting. I'll do some re-sizing on the shirt pics and post up.
I can see some rivets on the mail mitten but couldn't swear to all of them. Also a bit limited at the mo on doing a zoom on that image so if someone wants me to email them the originals, drop me a line. mark@griffinhistorical.com
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 1:47 am Post subject: |
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that shirt.
These are also the only pics i got of that Sword too...nice inlay on the pommel. Cant say anything more about it, looks river found.
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Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | that shirt.
These are also the only pics i got of that Sword too...nice inlay on the pommel. Cant say anything more about it, looks river found. |
River found would be a good guess.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them. |
Mart, do you have any more info on this mail example.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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The definitive work for the Tiefenau 6:1
Müller, Felix, Das Fragment eines keltischen Kettenpanzers von Tiefenau bei Bern, Archäologie der Schweiz vol.9 (1986), Issue 3, pp. 116-123
http://retro.seals.ch/cntmng;jsessionid=18C41...986:9::177
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, so any idea of the approximate age?
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | First pic is a fragment described as 'celtic' mail thats on display in Bern and the other some mail attached to a lovely early milanese gauntlet at Sion Castle Museum, Switzerland. Last is a shirt in the same museum, think it was late 15th/early 16th. cant seem to find it in my notes. i have a few more pics I can send if anyone wants.
Griff |
Mark, thanks for sending me your pictures, I am going through them, there are a few really interesting one. Here is my first question, there are two gaunlets with intact mail mittens, are these both early Milanese gauntlets? The mail mittens look very similar but the gauntlets are obviously not a pair.
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Mart Shearer
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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6 in 1 mail http://vk.com/photo11062527_121729260
The measurements 66.6cm-162.2cm looks like a shirt. Can't tell if the whole shirt is 6 in 1 or not.
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Eric S
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Len Parker
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see it to be 6:1.
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=13575
Source of photograph is given to be "ГОСУДАРСТВЕННАЯ ОРУЖЕЙНАЯ ПАЛАТА МОСКОВСКОГО КРЕМЛЯ" (издание 1954 года), i.e. State Moscow Kremlin Armory (published in 1954).
| Semen Kolchugin via Google Trans. wrote: | | Greetings. In the book "STATE Moscow Kremlin Armory" (published in 1954), under the double weave is understood that each rivet ring holds six neighboring rings . "The third and fourth chainmail, № 4469 and 4476, an interesting technique of fastening rings on two nails. The seizure of the State Armory, they are defined as chainmail Russian XVI century. The rings of chain mail number 4469 Off-round, iron, on the device resemble the rings of chain mail, as described above. Weave rings double , that is, every rivet ring holds six neighboring rings . The cut of the two coats of mail - in a shirt with short, above elbow sleeves. Collar square, much later nadstavlen low neck. Size and weight of mail number 4469: length - 66.6 cm, width sleeves - 102.2 cm, hem - 67.7 cm total weight of mail - 12,709, the " Mail №4469 |
The transcription regarding mail in Collection of scientific papers based on the State Armory the 1954 work by N.V. Gordeev.
Гордеев Н.В.
Сборник научных трудов по материалам Государственной оружейной палаты. М., 1954.
http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuirass/gordeev.htm
| Gordeeev via Google Trans. wrote: | The third and fourth chainmail, № 4469 and 4476, an interesting technique of fastening rings on the two nails. The seizure of the State Armory, they are defined as chainmail Russian XVI century (Fig. 6).
The rings of chain mail number 4469 - round, iron, on the device resemble the rings of chain mail, as described above. Weave double rings, that is, every rivet ring holds six neighboring rings. The cut of the two coats of mail - a shirt with short, above elbow sleeves. Gate square, much later nadstavlen low neck.
On the left side of the chest is a large round copper plate, apparently attached to the chain mail later.
Thus adorned chainmail and armor in the XVII century; plates of the gold, silver, sometimes covered from, and sometimes just left the copper (Fig. 7).
The size and weight of mail number 4469: length - 66.6 cm, width sleeves - 102.2 cm, hem - 67.7 cm total weight of mail - 12,709, the
Mail number 4476 on the nature of work is close to the number mailed 4469opisannoy above.
An interesting feature of this is the gate of mail, consisting of several rows of rings: in the back of the - of the 14 rows in front of the - of the 12 series ; in the ring gate is passed through a series of narrow rawhide strap that supports the neck of the gates in the standing position. Gate fastened right to left. At the gates wide (12 cm) podpolok. Both floors Lieutenant Colonel woven half of the large as itself chainmail, rings, fixing on two nails, double weave, and half of the smaller rings single braid, fastening on one nail, like the neck. Front and rear hem chainmail has incisions. Dimensions and weight of mail number 4476: shoulder width with sleeves - 100 cm, hem - 60 cm length - 67 cm, weight - 11 799
Total rings in chain mail about 20 000 pieces, including: tselnosechennyh -. 10000, riveted on two nails - 9000, riveted on one small nail rings around 1000. |
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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