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Mart Shearer wrote:
Eric,

I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799


The owner of hauberk #5 told me that it is all riveted,.
Eric S wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
Eric,

I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799


Mart, here are links to some larger images of hauberk #5. Take a look and let me know what you think after you view the larger images. I do not think the links have an Indo-Persian point after closely examining these images.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/5...56ddfd.jpg (all riveted-Mart)

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b...05c84c.jpg (demi-riveted -- Mart)

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f...471d91.jpg (all riveted)
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f...5364ab.jpg (all riveted)
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d...cea46d.jpg (all riveted)


Sorry Eric, I missed your previous posting, or simply forgot a response. All of the detail photos show all riveted construction except the second one. It could be that the photo got mis-labeled or mis-filed and is from another armor, OR someone could have added pieces of demi-riveted mail to extend the skirting or sleeves of an all riveted shirt. Perhaps the owner can clarify where photo #2 came from?

Interestingly enough, the second photo shows a probable repair or possible tailoring towards the upper left which disrupts the normal demi-riveted pattern. This is necessary in demi-riveted construction when tailoring, but sometimes leads to multiple rows of all riveted rings, or rows which change ring type (solid or riveted) half-way through.
Mart Shearer wrote:
Eric S wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
Eric,

I think your sample #5 is not European. The demi-riveted construction, round rivets, and interior point at the overlap suggest otherwise. Erik mentioned that interior point near the break of pages 2 & 3 in a previous discussion.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29799


Mart, here are links to some larger images of hauberk #5. Take a look and let me know what you think after you view the larger images. I do not think the links have an Indo-Persian point after closely examining these images.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/5...56ddfd.jpg (all riveted-Mart)

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b...05c84c.jpg (demi-riveted -- Mart)

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f...471d91.jpg (all riveted)
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f...5364ab.jpg (all riveted)
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d...cea46d.jpg (all riveted)


Sorry Eric, I missed your previous posting, or simply forgot a response. All of the detail photos show all riveted construction except the second one. It could be that the photo got mis-labeled or mis-filed and is from another armor, OR someone could have added pieces of demi-riveted mail to extend the skirting or sleeves of an all riveted shirt. Perhaps the owner can clarify where photo #2 came from?

Interestingly enough, the second photo shows a probable repair or possible tailoring towards the upper left which disrupts the normal demi-riveted pattern. This is necessary in demi-riveted construction when tailoring, but sometimes leads to multiple rows of all riveted rings, or rows which change ring type (solid or riveted) half-way through.


Mart I was thinking that maybe there was a repair made using a patch of old mail, I recently saw an Indian theta link mail and plate shirt that had a patch of demi riveted mail inserted to repair a hole. I asked for more pictures, still waiting.
Here is something interesting, it looks authentic.

European riveted mail arming sleeves, unknown age and origin. The Royal Armoury (Livrustkammaren) in the Royal Palace, Stockholm, Sweden.

High resolution image. http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/originals/3...8ef3ea.jpg
[ Linked Image ]


http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e...6fce7c.jpg
[ Linked Image ]
Possibly some mail with the weave going the wrong way.
Pitt Rivers Museum. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/rpr/index.php/compone...21-54.html
Bigger size. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/rpr/index.php/compone...e=orig.jpg
First pic is a fragment described as 'celtic' mail thats on display in Bern and the other some mail attached to a lovely early milanese gauntlet at Sion Castle Museum, Switzerland. Last is a shirt in the same museum, think it was late 15th/early 16th. cant seem to find it in my notes. i have a few more pics I can send if anyone wants.

Griff


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That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them.
Mart Shearer wrote:
That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them.
Mark, its hard to tell but is the mail on this mitten riveted?

[ Linked Image ]
Sadly I was without my decent camera, just iPhone pics so everything depended on the lighting. I'll do some re-sizing on the shirt pics and post up.

I can see some rivets on the mail mitten but couldn't swear to all of them. Also a bit limited at the mo on doing a zoom on that image so if someone wants me to email them the originals, drop me a line. mark@griffinhistorical.com
that shirt.

These are also the only pics i got of that Sword too...nice inlay on the pommel. Cant say anything more about it, looks river found.


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Mark Griffin wrote:
that shirt.

These are also the only pics i got of that Sword too...nice inlay on the pommel. Cant say anything more about it, looks river found.


River found would be a good guess.
[ Linked Image ]
Mart Shearer wrote:
That first sample is the 6:1 fragment from Tiefenau. More pics? Of course we want to see them.
Mart, do you have any more info on this mail example.


[ Linked Image ]
The definitive work for the Tiefenau 6:1

Müller, Felix, Das Fragment eines keltischen Kettenpanzers von Tiefenau bei Bern, Archäologie der Schweiz vol.9 (1986), Issue 3, pp. 116-123

http://retro.seals.ch/cntmng;jsessionid=18C41...986:9::177
Mart Shearer wrote:
The definitive work for the Tiefenau 6:1

Müller, Felix, Das Fragment eines keltischen Kettenpanzers von Tiefenau bei Bern, Archäologie der Schweiz vol.9 (1986), Issue 3, pp. 116-123

http://retro.seals.ch/cntmng;jsessionid=18C41...986:9::177


Thanks, so any idea of the approximate age?
Mark Griffin wrote:
First pic is a fragment described as 'celtic' mail thats on display in Bern and the other some mail attached to a lovely early milanese gauntlet at Sion Castle Museum, Switzerland. Last is a shirt in the same museum, think it was late 15th/early 16th. cant seem to find it in my notes. i have a few more pics I can send if anyone wants.

Griff


Mark, thanks for sending me your pictures, I am going through them, there are a few really interesting one. Here is my first question, there are two gaunlets with intact mail mittens, are these both early Milanese gauntlets? The mail mittens look very similar but the gauntlets are obviously not a pair.

[ Linked Image ]
Eric S wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
The definitive work for the Tiefenau 6:1

Müller, Felix, Das Fragment eines keltischen Kettenpanzers von Tiefenau bei Bern, Archäologie der Schweiz vol.9 (1986), Issue 3, pp. 116-123

http://retro.seals.ch/cntmng;jsessionid=18C41...986:9::177


Thanks, so any idea of the approximate age?


From Armour Archive discussion of 6:1 mail -
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...au#p832045
Nate B. wrote:
Fragments of maille found at Tiefenau (near Bern, in Switzerland) were of the 6-in-1 construction. The rings were about 1 cm diameter and a little over 1.2 mm wire thickness. The find is a "massenfund" or hoard deposit dating from the 2nd--to 1st centuries BC. The find is Celtic/Gallic.


http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_21.pdf
I.M. Stead wrote:
...but the Tiefenau find has La Tène II and III artefacts, including Nauheim brooches.


Nauheim brooches date from 120 - 48 B.C. according to this reference.
http://vml.de/e/detail.php?ISBN=978-3-89646-301-2
6 in 1 mail http://vk.com/photo11062527_121729260
The measurements 66.6cm-162.2cm looks like a shirt. Can't tell if the whole shirt is 6 in 1 or not.
Len Parker wrote:
6 in 1 mail http://vk.com/photo11062527_121729260
The measurements 66.6cm-162.2cm looks like a shirt. Can't tell if the whole shirt is 6 in 1 or not.


Len, any idea on origin and age. It looks to be double riveted.

Higher resolution image. http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c...15c1ed.jpg
[ Linked Image ]
At bottom http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=13575
I see 16thc. Any russian speakers here? Curious as to whether the 6 in 1 is just the collar or the whole shirt.
I don't see it to be 6:1.

http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=13575
Source of photograph is given to be "ГОСУДАРСТВЕННАЯ ОРУЖЕЙНАЯ ПАЛАТА МОСКОВСКОГО КРЕМЛЯ" (издание 1954 года), i.e. State Moscow Kremlin Armory (published in 1954).
Semen Kolchugin via Google Trans. wrote:
Greetings. In the book "STATE Moscow Kremlin Armory" (published in 1954), under the double weave is understood that each rivet ring holds six neighboring rings . "The third and fourth chainmail, № 4469 and 4476, an interesting technique of fastening rings on two nails. The seizure of the State Armory, they are defined as chainmail Russian XVI century. The rings of chain mail number 4469 Off-round, iron, on the device resemble the rings of chain mail, as described above. Weave rings double , that is, every rivet ring holds six neighboring rings . The cut of the two coats of mail - in a shirt with short, above elbow sleeves. Collar square, much later nadstavlen low neck. Size and weight of mail number 4469: length - 66.6 cm, width sleeves - 102.2 cm, hem - 67.7 cm total weight of mail - 12,709, the " Mail №4469


The transcription regarding mail in Collection of scientific papers based on the State Armory the 1954 work by N.V. Gordeev.
Гордеев Н.В.
Сборник научных трудов по материалам Государственной оружейной палаты. М., 1954.
http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuirass/gordeev.htm

Gordeeev via Google Trans. wrote:
The third and fourth chainmail, № 4469 and 4476, an interesting technique of fastening rings on the two nails. The seizure of the State Armory, they are defined as chainmail Russian XVI century (Fig. 6).
The rings of chain mail number 4469 - round, iron, on the device resemble the rings of chain mail, as described above. Weave double rings, that is, every rivet ring holds six neighboring rings. The cut of the two coats of mail - a shirt with short, above elbow sleeves. Gate square, much later nadstavlen low neck.
On the left side of the chest is a large round copper plate, apparently attached to the chain mail later.
Thus adorned chainmail and armor in the XVII century; plates of the gold, silver, sometimes covered from, and sometimes just left the copper (Fig. 7).
The size and weight of mail number 4469: length - 66.6 cm, width sleeves - 102.2 cm, hem - 67.7 cm total weight of mail - 12,709, the
Mail number 4476 on the nature of work is close to the number mailed 4469opisannoy above.
An interesting feature of this is the gate of mail, consisting of several rows of rings: in the back of the - of the 14 rows in front of the - of the 12 series ; in the ring gate is passed through a series of narrow rawhide strap that supports the neck of the gates in the standing position. Gate fastened right to left. At the gates wide (12 cm) podpolok. Both floors Lieutenant Colonel woven half of the large as itself chainmail, rings, fixing on two nails, double weave, and half of the smaller rings single braid, fastening on one nail, like the neck. Front and rear hem chainmail has incisions. Dimensions and weight of mail number 4476: shoulder width with sleeves - 100 cm, hem - 60 cm length - 67 cm, weight - 11 799
Total rings in chain mail about 20 000 pieces, including: tselnosechennyh -. 10000, riveted on two nails - 9000, riveted on one small nail rings around 1000.
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