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Eric S
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 Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert MacPherson wrote: |
It would be nice if we could tell which of those identically described lots is the one illustrated. I am pretty sure I have not seen this in the Met's accession cards, so I suspect that the one illustrated in the catalog did not go to them.
Mac |
Mac, according to the book there were four "sleeveless" hauberks in the collection, the notes show that one went to the Met, have you seen any hauberk listed by the Met that fits this discription?
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 1:28 am Post subject: |
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well found! that's pretty amazing. I must admit the quality of the pic had me wondering if it was some kind of 19th cent pageant costume made of string. Wonder if it still has its fabric components.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 1:41 am Post subject: |
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So its got a button up front... but whats that button doing on the right shoulder/collar bone? Is there traces of similar arrangement on the opposite side?
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Erik D. Schmid
Location: St. Cloud, MN Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon 19 Jan, 2015 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Robert MacPherson wrote: | Thank you, Eric! That's the one alright.
Tom Billiter just posted a link to this page over on the AA. https://archive.org/stream/ilcdavaatal00amer/ilcdavaatal00amer#page/n450/mode/1up
It would be nice if we could tell which of those identically described lots is the one illustrated. I am pretty sure I have not seen this in the Met's accession cards, so I suspect that the one illustrated in the catalog did not go to them.
Mac |
You're correct Mac. I just looked over the Met's European mail cards and this piece is not among them. It might have been part of the collection at one time, but has since been removed.
http://www.erikds.com
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jan, 2015 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Another image of some Roman mail (Photo Christa S. Fuchs), useful for showing that the riveted and punched rings aren't always the same size.
http://www.actu-histoireantique.com/page/6
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:50 am Post subject: |
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so behind this lovely section of eyelet coat...
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8...2282ce.jpg
the pinterest comment reads
'European eyelet doublet with metal rings sewn inside the eyelets, 15th to 16th century, Wurzburg Castle, Germany. '
but other descriptions by here are off so won't take this as meaning much. Off to search for the castle...
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2015 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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supposedly 15th/16th copper alloy but 10mm across
 Attachment: 43.05 KB
[ Download ]
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | so behind this lovely section of eyelet coat...
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8...2282ce.jpg
the pinterest comment reads
'European eyelet doublet with metal rings sewn inside the eyelets, 15th to 16th century, Wurzburg Castle, Germany. '
but other descriptions by here are off so won't take this as meaning much. Off to search for the castle... |
This eyelet doublet definitely has metal rings in it but it isn't "mail" as we define it. There already is an earlier thread discussing this armour. It is an example of the rare "ring armour" construction.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | so behind this lovely section of eyelet coat...
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8...2282ce.jpg
the pinterest comment reads
'European eyelet doublet with metal rings sewn inside the eyelets, 15th to 16th century, Wurzburg Castle, Germany. '
but other descriptions by here are off so won't take this as meaning much. Off to search for the castle... |
Mark, I think that discription is fairly accurate, here is another example.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted double post.
Last edited by Eric S on Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:13 am Post subject: |
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Hi, Thanks
Yes I'm very familiar with eyelet stuff (although not that specific one at Wartburg, it has others) , it was the mail behind it that was my aim with that pic. Just wondered if anyone had any images of it without the eyelet coat section in front of it.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | Hi, Thanks
Yes I'm very familiar with eyelet stuff (although not that specific one at Wartburg, it has others) , it was the mail behind it that was my aim with that pic. Just wondered if anyone had any images of it without the eyelet coat section in front of it. |
I can not remember seeing one.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 31 Jan, 2015 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone have information on this hauberk?
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 31 Jan, 2015 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Likely the same:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/503629170802128152/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/427912402066359382/
| Quote: | | European (German, Nuremberg) riveted mail hauberk, detail view, end of the 15th century, long sleeves of flattened riveted rings, collar and seams are bordered with two rows of brass rings, original buckle with leather remnants is riveted to the collar, brass armourer's ring at the neck stamped with the maker's inscription, "Hans M..." in front of two stylised towers. Length 67 cm. Weight 6380 g. Late Gothic mail shirt in unusually fine condition. F1. |
The "unusually fine condition" descriptor suggests an auction catalog.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Likely the same:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/503629170802128152/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/427912402066359382/
| Quote: | | European (German, Nuremberg) riveted mail hauberk, detail view, end of the 15th century, long sleeves of flattened riveted rings, collar and seams are bordered with two rows of brass rings, original buckle with leather remnants is riveted to the collar, brass armourer's ring at the neck stamped with the maker's inscription, "Hans M..." in front of two stylised towers. Length 67 cm. Weight 6380 g. Late Gothic mail shirt in unusually fine condition. F1. |
The "unusually fine condition" descriptor suggests an auction catalog. |
Thank Mart, I think your right, it appears to be this one, maybe from a different catelog.
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Márk György Kis
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| Posted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 4:04 am Post subject: |
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How do you see if a mail coat was tinned? Simply being flashy silvery?
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 5:02 am Post subject: |
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See if the maker had gone stark staring blind and mad I suppose. I can just about imagine gilding them, its kind of worth it...but tinning...
But its a good point to raise, wonder if there are any. Certainly my own originals, if they've been looked after, are nicely shiny anyway.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Márk György Kis wrote: | | How do you see if a mail coat was tinned? Simply being flashy silvery? |
Mark, there is plenty of evidence that some Indian mail was galvanized, also some Japanese riveted mail appears to have been tinned/galvanized as well, I am not sure about European mail.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Back on p.16 of this discussion Viktor Asenov provides evidence of a silver-gilt latten mail shirt. The Wallace Collection's sleeves A10-11 are also latten. Erik Schmid identified them as having been tinned. If you see a silver coating on brass wire, it's either tinning or silver, but you would have to likely do some testing to determine which.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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This is a