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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 802

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sure you are right. Not my area of study, I stick to European items. Although I have handled some of the zinc dipped Indian stuff at Leeds. Didn't count that as it wasn't tinned as per the question.

As I said, no doubt people will come forward with info, as you have.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,302

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Roman mail at Vindonissa has gold!
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/93/bd/3e/93bd3e39c263a62a12ae3ee3b70d56d2.jpg

Fire gilding with mercury is not a job I'd want.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 6:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
Hi, Thanks

Yes I'm very familiar with eyelet stuff (although not that specific one at Wartburg, it has others) , it was the mail behind it that was my aim with that pic. Just wondered if anyone had any images of it without the eyelet coat section in front of it.


Mark, this is the best image I know of, the rings do not look like riveted mail, they seem more like washers/solid links to me.

Hi resolution image.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/00/04/35/0004352caee4751d58d0b090c0c5ddd0.jpg



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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 802

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 6:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks but like i said, I only posted the original pic for the mail hauberk behind it. And yes, they are solid washers on the eyelet coat.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
Thanks but like i said, I only posted the original pic for the mail hauberk behind it. And yes, they are solid washers on the eyelet coat.
I misundedrstood what you were looking for.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 802

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2015 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No worries, the close-ups may well be useful if i ever decided to devote many days of my life to that project :-) I've certainly got a ton of rings sitting somewhere.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2015 3:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Erik D. Schmid wrote:
Robert MacPherson wrote:
Thank you, Eric! That's the one alright.

Tom Billiter just posted a link to this page over on the AA. https://archive.org/stream/ilcdavaatal00amer/ilcdavaatal00amer#page/n450/mode/1up




It would be nice if we could tell which of those identically described lots is the one illustrated. I am pretty sure I have not seen this in the Met's accession cards, so I suspect that the one illustrated in the catalog did not go to them.

Mac


You're correct Mac. I just looked over the Met's European mail cards and this piece is not among them. It might have been part of the collection at one time, but has since been removed.


The auction house which sold this hauberk says in their auction catalog that the Met has a similar one.

Quote:
Kettenhemden mit Leder- oder Stoffeinsätzen befinden sich in der Carl Otto Kretschmar von Kienbusch
Collection im Museum of Art in Philadelphia und im Metropolitan Museum New York. ZHWK Bd. 44, Heft
2, Abb. S. 180 (2002).

Chainmail and leather or fabric panels are located in the Carl Otto Kretschmar of Kienbusch
Collection at the Museum of Art in Philadelphia and the Metropolitan Museum of New York. ZHWK Vol. 44, Issue
2, Fig. S. 180 (2002).



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Robert MacPherson
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Location: Jeffersonville USA
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2015 8:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How very strange. Kienbusch used to live in NewYork, but to the best of ny knowledge he gave all of his armor to the Philadelphia Museum of art . At first blush, I imagine the writer of the auction catalog must be thinking of this object in Philly.... but I would hate to think he would claim there is any real comparison.


Mac

Robert MacPherson
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http://billyandcharlie.com/
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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
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Posts: 294

PostPosted: Wed 04 Feb, 2015 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't know if it has been posted yet.

"European riveted mail hauberk, 14th c, Sinigaglia Italy, detail view, alternating wedge riveted and solid links, well preserved with no rust, thigh length, short sleeve, lower edge and sleeves decorated with several rows of brass rings forming a triangular decorative design. Avg dia of links:(riveted iron 13.72 mm), (riveted brass 15.14 mm), (solid iron 15.31 mm), (solid brass16.54 mm). Wire thickness (riveted iron1.5 mm), (riveted brass 1.6 mm), (solid iron 2.7 mm), (solid brass 2.2 mm). A1."

https://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/xivth-century/




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www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.

Pinterest albums on almost all existing XVth century Italian armour.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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Posts: 805

PostPosted: Wed 04 Feb, 2015 5:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augusto Boer Bront wrote:
Don't know if it has been posted yet.

"European riveted mail hauberk, 14th c, Sinigaglia Italy, detail view, alternating wedge riveted and solid links, well preserved with no rust, thigh length, short sleeve, lower edge and sleeves decorated with several rows of brass rings forming a triangular decorative design. Avg dia of links:(riveted iron 13.72 mm), (riveted brass 15.14 mm), (solid iron 15.31 mm), (solid brass16.54 mm). Wire thickness (riveted iron1.5 mm), (riveted brass 1.6 mm), (solid iron 2.7 mm), (solid brass 2.2 mm). A1."

https://www.pinterest.com/aboerbront/xivth-century/



Augusto, that particular hauberk is quite will documented, here is a link with quite a few images of it from my European mail pinterest site. https://www.pinterest.com/search/my_pins/?q=Sinigaglia

The Sinigaglia hauberk is quite unusual, one of only a very few known alternating solid link and wedge riveted link examples. Unfortunately all of the images I know of show only the outside of the links, I have not seen any which show the wedge side. I feel that this is an example of the stage between the early alternating solid and round riveted mail and the later all wedge riveted mail.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,302

PostPosted: Wed 04 Feb, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm fairly certain images of the Sinigaglia hauberk had been posted on myArmoury before along with images of the Edinburgh coif. This image shows some of the insides of the latten dags on the sleeves,
http://s201.photobucket.com/user/expasifist/m...3.jpg.html

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Feb, 2015 11:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
I'm fairly certain images of the Sinigaglia hauberk had been posted on myArmoury before along with images of the Edinburgh coif. This image shows some of the insides of the latten dags on the sleeves,
http://s201.photobucket.com/user/expasifist/m...3.jpg.html


Mart your right, there are a couple of wedge rivet backs showing but none that I can remember of the iron links, do you have any images of those?

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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,302

PostPosted: Thu 05 Feb, 2015 5:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric,
Unfortunately that's the only image I have showing the interior of the rings. You can see a few of the riveted iron rings a couple of rings up, but while the overlap may be discerned the rivet itself is hard to pick out. Corrosion and cleaning have taken their toll on the iron in iron rings, while the iron rivets in brass are more clearly defined.

Interestingly, the latten dags are applied at 90 degrees to the weave of the mail in the sleeve.



 Attachment: 17.24 KB
Sinigaglia back.jpg


ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Feb, 2015 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Eric,
Unfortunately that's the only image I have showing the interior of the rings. You can see a few of the riveted iron rings a couple of rings up, but while the overlap may be discerned the rivet itself is hard to pick out. Corrosion and cleaning have taken their toll on the iron in iron rings, while the iron rivets in brass are more clearly defined.

Interestingly, the latten dags are applied at 90 degrees to the weave of the mail in the sleeve.


Here are another two hauberks that are quite similar to the Sinigaglia hauberk, they are edged with brass links and they have alternating solid and riveted links, unfortunately there are no images of the inside of the links to see if they are wedge riveted but I would bet they are.

Rustkammer Museum (Vienna).



Sold at auction.

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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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Posts: 1,302

PostPosted: Thu 05 Feb, 2015 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That last example looks German. I wonder who added the light collar with thongs and when?

The cut of the sleeves is quite unusual.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Feb, 2015 7:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

my thoughts re the sleeve too Mart. Unusual variant I haven't seen before.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Feb, 2015 8:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I posted this one before but it also belongs with the group of alternating solid and wedge riveted link hauberks, despite not having brass link edges, they could have been removed or it possibly never had them. I think some serious thought needs to go into adding this European riveted mail construction method to the list along with alternating solid links and round riveted link mail and all wedge riveted link mail, undoubtedly there are more examples waiting to be discovered.


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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 10:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
my thoughts re the sleeve too Mart. Unusual variant I haven't seen before.


The Hermann Historica description:
Quote:
Lot Nr. 67
A Gothic full armour for the field
------------
Fine German mail shirt (Haubergeon), 15th century, formed of close-set rows of riveted flattened iron rings alternating with rows of flattened butted rings, of slightly smaller diameter at the sides, the hem and the cuff borders of riveted latten rings, as three rows and a single row respectively, extending to the mid-thigh and over the elbow, with neck-opening closed by a small overlapping flap (the neck now fitted with an Indian standing collar of mail reinforced with leather, 18th /19th century), the sleeves with flared openings unusually extended at sharp right angles over the outer sides of the elbow, and preserved in very fine and almost wholly undamaged condition throughout (two or three rings missing over the top of the right shoulder). Length (excluding collar) 78.5 cm.


I'm unsure if I trust the 15th century dating without some artistic example of similar sleeves. The whole issue of how much fully riveted mail displaced the demi-riveted in Europe generally, or Germany in particular is not well understood.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 802

PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 2:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm trying to find some pics but the Pitt-Rivers museum in Oxford has just had a major re-display of its mail. It has a lot of fragments and a great deal of non European ethnography, but there is some nice examples there of all types.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 802

PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 2:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

speak of the devil, Mark at Cap-A-Pie tweeted this link...

http://pittrivers-verve.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/weve-got-mail.html

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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