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Mart Shearer
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 Posted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | Mark Griffin wrote: | | my thoughts re the sleeve too Mart. Unusual variant I haven't seen before. |
The Hermann Historica description:
| Quote: | Lot Nr. 67
A Gothic full armour for the field
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Fine German mail shirt (Haubergeon), 15th century, formed of close-set rows of riveted flattened iron rings alternating with rows of flattened butted rings, of slightly smaller diameter at the sides, the hem and the cuff borders of riveted latten rings, as three rows and a single row respectively, extending to the mid-thigh and over the elbow, with neck-opening closed by a small overlapping flap (the neck now fitted with an Indian standing collar of mail reinforced with leather, 18th /19th century), the sleeves with flared openings unusually extended at sharp right angles over the outer sides of the elbow, and preserved in very fine and almost wholly undamaged condition throughout (two or three rings missing over the top of the right shoulder). Length (excluding collar) 78.5 cm. |
I'm unsure if I trust the 15th century dating without some artistic example of similar sleeves. The whole issue of how much fully riveted mail displaced the demi-riveted in Europe generally, or Germany in particular is not well understood. |
I have proposed on Armour Archive that the Hermann Historica shirt is being displayed backwards. We know the Indian collar is a later addition, and I think they put the slit to the back. This means the sleeve extensions cover the inner elbow.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...1#p2695671
| Quote: | I'm beginning to wonder if the Hermann Historica shirt isn't being displayed backwards. We know the Indian collar is a later addition, and without it the neck opening is very high without a slit. So I'm thinking this is the back we're being shown, and the sleeve extensions or steps belong on the front.
Compare this example from BNF Français 343 Queste del Saint Graal / Tristan de Léonois fo. 17 verso.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4317/7113/
[attachment=0]BNF Français 343 fo.17v.jpg[/attachment]
The mail on the upper arm is tight fitting, but continues into the inner elbow. This is exactly what the Hermann Historica example would do if turned around. No need to have much mail below the vambraces, allowing for a tighter fit.
Opposing opinions? |
 Attachment: 95.33 KB
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 09 Feb, 2015 1:30 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Mart Shearer"][quote="Mart Shearer"] | Mark Griffin wrote: | | my thoughts re the sleeve too Mart. Unusual variant I haven't seen before. |
The Hermann Historica description:
| Quote: | Lot Nr. 67
A Gothic full armour for the field
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Fine German mail shirt (Haubergeon), 15th century, formed of close-set rows of riveted flattened iron rings alternating with rows of flattened butted rings, of slightly smaller diameter at the sides, the hem and the cuff borders of riveted latten rings, as three rows and a single row respectively, extending to the mid-thigh and over the elbow, with neck-opening closed by a small overlapping flap (the neck now fitted with an Indian standing collar of mail reinforced with leather, 18th /19th century), the sleeves with flared openings unusually extended at sharp right angles over the outer sides of the elbow, and preserved in very fine and almost wholly undamaged condition throughout (two or three rings missing over the top of the right shoulder). Length (excluding collar) 78.5 cm. |
| Quote: | | I'm unsure if I trust the 15th century dating without some artistic example of similar sleeves. The whole issue of how much fully riveted mail displaced the demi-riveted in Europe generally, or Germany in particular is not well understood. |
I have proposed on Armour Archive that the Hermann Historica shirt is being displayed backwards. We know the Indian collar is a later addition, and I think they put the slit to the back. This means the sleeve extensions cover the inner elbow.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...1#p2695671
| Quote: | I'm beginning to wonder if the Hermann Historica shirt isn't being displayed backwards. We know the Indian collar is a later addition, and without it the neck opening is very high without a slit. So I'm thinking this is the back we're being shown, and the sleeve extensions or steps belong on the front.
Compare this example from BNF Français 343 Queste del Saint Graal / Tristan de Léonois fo. 17 verso.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4317/7113/
The mail on the upper arm is tight fitting, but continues into the inner elbow. This is exactly what the Hermann Historica example would do if turned around. No need to have much mail below the vambraces, allowing for a tighter fit.
Opposing opinions? |
Mart, I am not seeing the collar as being particularly Indian, the mail does not look indian, maybe the collar was added at a later date later in Europe.
Detail view of the sleeve showing that this hauberk appears to be alternating wedge riveted and solid links.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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just noticed this fella
http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-chain-mail-ha...&rt=nc
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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I've just got a reprint of the 1927 auction catalog of Archduke Eugen from the sale held in 1927 at Anderson Galleries, New York.
As well as a composite armour (and thats being kind, awful mish mash in reality) with a brayette, on page 204 are listed lots 1053- ' a large German double chain cape, early 16th cent,' and 1054 'Maximillian chain shirt, late 16th cent'.
How late 16th cent is Maximillian I can't quite work out but the shirt has quite wide sleeves with the cuffs ended diagonally (my poor description, sorry) and it's split nearly all the way up the front with what looks like a canvas collar and possibly some kind of secondary reenforce for the chest behind the split.
Its a bad description because its a bad picture. Anyone have a better copy of this? I'll scan and post if not, but its a bad reprint on poor paper.
Having had a dig, some items went to the Met so they may have ended up there...
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Mark, an interesting looking hauberk, ther horrible pictures make it hard to determine anything, I am sure the seller lost money because if this, It has the look of an Ottoman hauberk to me if I were to take a guess. I asked the seller for additional photos twice but there was no reply.
| Quote: | Rare artifact found buried in the Saudi Arabian desert by members of an ARAMCO team searching for oil c. 1937, this chain mail hauberk likely dates from as long ago as the Middle Ages.
Note the remnant of the medallion on the front of the garment (see close-up pic) and the close-up pic of the loops to see style of manufacture.
Weighs 24 pounds. Small hole (half inch) located near neck on the back of the garment. This item will be shipped only to an address within Continental US. |
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 19 Feb, 2015 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose the arsenal mark or "medallion" has the best likelihood of identifying this.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | I suppose the arsenal mark or "medallion" has the best likelihood of identifying this. |
Here is an Ottoman hauberk of similar form.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 28 Mar, 2015 12:56 am Post subject: |
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I recently paid the well known translator of Japanese texts, Markus Sesko, https://markussesko.wordpress.com/ to translate a chapter on Japanese mail (kusari) from "Nihon katchū no shin kenkyū" (new study of Japanese armor) by Hachirō Yamagami, 1928. Mr Yamagami was an author of several books on the subject of Japanese armor and a well respected researcher, as far as I know this is the first English translation of this chapter. There is some very good reference material here including early use of mail and information on Japanese riveted mail. I converted the pdf to a form that could be posted on pinterest.
Pinterest https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4a/f0/a1/4af0a1561b176483caec1fb76de92011.jpg
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Robert Rootslane
Location: Estonia Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Tue 31 Mar, 2015 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I cant find it, but a while a go i read from this forum that in some areas where iron was of really crappy quality and thus good wire for mail armour couldnt be drawn. I think someone mentioned other methods like cutting strips from a plate or something similar. Does anyone know more about this, and could maybe give a good link?
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 01 Apr, 2015 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Robert Rootslane wrote: | | I cant find it, but a while a go i read from this forum that in some areas where iron was of really crappy quality and thus good wire for mail armour couldnt be drawn. I think someone mentioned other methods like cutting strips from a plate or something similar. Does anyone know more about this, and could maybe give a good link? |
Williams briefly talks about different ways to make wire. It is summarised in the Mail Unchained article.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 01 Apr, 2015 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Robert Rootslane wrote: | | I cant find it, but a while a go i read from this forum that in some areas where iron was of really crappy quality and thus good wire for mail armour couldnt be drawn. I think someone mentioned other methods like cutting strips from a plate or something similar. Does anyone know more about this, and could maybe give a good link? |
Robert, you can find some proof of the method you mention in this article.
The manufacture of chain-mail – Arne Jouttijärvi http://www.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_10.pdf
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 01 Apr, 2015 4:22 am Post subject: A Mail Shirt from the Hearst Collection – E. Martin Burgess. |
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The so called Hearst hauberk, are there any known images of it besides the ones from this essay? When reading the description from the pdf at Eriks site I realized that this is another of the rare alternating solid and wedge riveted link hauberks that are described as being 14th century. Another example is the Sinigaglia hauberk.
http://www.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_13.pdf
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Wed 01 Apr, 2015 5:47 am Post subject: |
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As you will note from the article the Rudolph IV of Austria (Hapsburg) mail shirt is now in the Royal Armouries.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 01 Apr, 2015 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | As you will note from the article the Rudolph IV of Austria (Hapsburg) mail shirt is now in the Royal Armouries.
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Thanks Mart, as far as I know, images from the Royal armories have been unavailable for quite some time. | Quote: | | The Royal Armouries collection online is currently undergoing redevelopment and not available to the public. We hope to launch our new collections search by the end of 2014. |
Apparently this is the same hauberk, I never tried searching for the "Rudolph IV of Austria (Hapsburg) mail shirt"
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 30 Apr, 2015 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Peter Mustonen provided these images in another thread. The pimpled rings are an unusual decorative feature alternating with the brass. Demi-riveted construction of flat punched rings alternating with riveted round wire rings:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=31933
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 30 Apr, 2015 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Peter Mustonen provided these images in another thread. The pimpled rings are an unusual decorative feature alternating with the brass. Demi-riveted construction of flat punched rings alternating with riveted round wire rings:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=31933 |
Mart, the riveted links are very similar in construction to Russian round riveted links that I have seen. Here is a comparison showing the shirt in question next to some 1800s Russian round riveted mail links. There is not 'watershed", the riveted links are formed more like Eastern round riveted links than European wedge riveted links.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 02 May, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Mart Shearer wrote: | As you will note from the article the Rudolph IV of Austria (Hapsburg) mail shirt is now in the Royal Armouries.
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Thanks Mart, as far as I know, images from the Royal armories have been unavailable for quite some time. | Quote: | | The Royal Armouries collection online is currently undergoing redevelopment and not available to the public. We hope to launch our new collections search by the end of 2014. |
Apparently this is the same hauberk, I never tried searching for the "Rudolph IV of Austria (Hapsburg) mail shirt"
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Eric,
You're in luck. Tom Biliter recently posted some images from the RA in Leeds from a 2007 visit. Although he didn't take any of the full shirt, he did get one good close photo. 
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7VQpDdg9VywTndEVmd6UlpqaHM/edit?pli=1
Although Tom states this is the Rudolph IV shirt, and I believe him, it is at odds with Burgess' description of "anti-clockwise" overlap, as the rings seem to be the usual, medieval right-hand helix. See discussion and links to the album on Armour Archive:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=177896
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Peter Mustonen
Location: Finland Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun 03 May, 2015 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Trying to figure out something more about oriental and stated russian shirts bechters.
world antiques pinterest has a nice picture of a bechter sold by Julia auctions some time ago.
Thomas Del Mar had similar in last auction.
It is very popular to state these are russian. So what makes them Russian??
Are Indian links so different from Russian riveted links ?
I know one russian bechter here in Finland with cyrillic lettering on some rings. That I know, is a russian one, but for me most of these bechters on the market stated as a russian are from bikaneer armoury India.
Heres a pictures of a stated russian bechter. Round rivets.
Attachment: 85.68 KB
Attachment: 138.35 KB
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 03 May, 2015 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Mart Shearer wrote: | Peter Mustonen provided these images in another thread. The pimpled rings are an unusual decorative feature alternating with the brass. Demi-riveted construction of flat punched rings alternating with riveted round wire rings:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=31933 |
Mart, the riveted links are very similar in construction to Russian round riveted links that I have seen. Here is a comparison showing the shirt in question next to some 1800s Russian round riveted mail links. There is not 'watershed", the riveted links are formed more like Eastern round riveted links than European wedge riveted links.
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Well I was wrong here, Peter has provided an image from the back side of the links showing that they are wedge riveted.
This shows how important having images of BOTH sides of the links really is.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 03 May, 2015 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Mustonen wrote: | Trying to figure out something more about oriental and stated russian shirts bechters.
world antiques pinterest has a nice picture of a bechter sold by Julia auctions some time ago.
Thomas Del Mar had similar in last auction.
It is very popular to state these are russian. So what makes them Russian??
Are Indian links so different from Russian riveted links ?
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Peter, the commonly used term would be "Indo-Persian", "Oriental" is not used much any more. As for Indian links, yes as far as I have seen from the examples currently available, when you see a good detailed image of Indian links they are very recgonizable.
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