[quote="Mart Shearer"][quote="Mart Shearer"]

Mark Griffin wrote:

my thoughts re the sleeve too Mart. Unusual variant I haven't seen before.

The Hermann Historica description:

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Lot Nr. 67 A Gothic full armour for the field ------------ Fine German mail shirt (Haubergeon), 15th century, formed of close-set rows of riveted flattened iron rings alternating with rows of flattened butted rings, of slightly smaller diameter at the sides, the hem and the cuff borders of riveted latten rings, as three rows and a single row respectively, extending to the mid-thigh and over the elbow, with neck-opening closed by a small overlapping flap (the neck now fitted with an Indian standing collar of mail reinforced with leather, 18th /19th century), the sleeves with flared openings unusually extended at sharp right angles over the outer sides of the elbow, and preserved in very fine and almost wholly undamaged condition throughout (two or three rings missing over the top of the right shoulder). Length (excluding collar) 78.5 cm.

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I'm unsure if I trust the 15th century dating without some artistic example of similar sleeves. The whole issue of how much fully riveted mail displaced the demi-riveted in Europe generally, or Germany in particular is not well understood.

I have proposed on Armour Archive that the Hermann Historica shirt is being displayed backwards. We know the Indian collar is a later addition, and I think they put the slit to the back. This means the sleeve extensions cover the inner elbow.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...1#p2695671

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I'm beginning to wonder if the Hermann Historica shirt isn't being displayed backwards. We know the Indian collar is a later addition, and without it the neck opening is very high without a slit. So I'm thinking this is the back we're being shown, and the sleeve extensions or steps belong on the front. Compare this example from BNF Français 343 Queste del Saint Graal / Tristan de Léonois fo. 17 verso. http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4317/7113/ [ Linked Image ] The mail on the upper arm is tight fitting, but continues into the inner elbow. This is exactly what the Hermann Historica example would do if turned around. No need to have much mail below the vambraces, allowing for a tighter fit. Opposing opinions?

Mart, I am not seeing the collar as being particularly Indian, the mail does not look indian, maybe the collar was added at a later date later in Europe.
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Detail view of the sleeve showing that this hauberk appears to be alternating wedge riveted and solid links.
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just noticed this fella

http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-chain-mail-ha...&rt=nc

I've just got a reprint of the 1927 auction catalog of Archduke Eugen from the sale held in 1927 at Anderson Galleries, New York.

As well as a composite armour (and thats being kind, awful mish mash in reality) with a brayette, on page 204 are listed lots 1053- ' a large German double chain cape, early 16th cent,' and 1054 'Maximillian chain shirt, late 16th cent'.

How late 16th cent is Maximillian I can't quite work out but the shirt has quite wide sleeves with the cuffs ended diagonally (my poor description, sorry) and it's split nearly all the way up the front with what looks like a canvas collar and possibly some kind of secondary reenforce for the chest behind the split.

Its a bad description because its a bad picture. Anyone have a better copy of this? I'll scan and post if not, but its a bad reprint on poor paper.

Having had a dig, some items went to the Met so they may have ended up there...

I suppose the arsenal mark or "medallion" has the best likelihood of identifying this.

I recently paid the well known translator of Japanese texts, Markus Sesko, https://markussesko.wordpress.com/ to translate a chapter on Japanese mail (kusari) from "Nihon katchū no shin kenkyū" (new study of Japanese armor) by Hachirō Yamagami, 1928. Mr Yamagami was an author of several books on the subject of Japanese armor and a well respected researcher, as far as I know this is the first English translation of this chapter. There is some very good reference material here including early use of mail and information on Japanese riveted mail. I converted the pdf to a form that could be posted on pinterest.

Pinterest https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4a/f0/a1/4af0a1561b176483caec1fb76de92011.jpg

I cant find it, but a while a go i read from this forum that in some areas where iron was of really crappy quality and thus good wire for mail armour couldnt be drawn. I think someone mentioned other methods like cutting strips from a plate or something similar. Does anyone know more about this, and could maybe give a good link?

The so called Hearst hauberk, are there any known images of it besides the ones from this essay? When reading the description from the pdf at Eriks site I realized that this is another of the rare alternating solid and wedge riveted link hauberks that are described as being 14th century. Another example is the Sinigaglia hauberk.

http://www.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_13.pdf
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As you will note from the article the Rudolph IV of Austria (Hapsburg) mail shirt is now in the Royal Armouries.

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Peter Mustonen provided these images in another thread. The pimpled rings are an unusual decorative feature alternating with the brass. Demi-riveted construction of flat punched rings alternating with riveted round wire rings:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=31933
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Trying to figure out something more about oriental and stated russian shirts bechters.
world antiques pinterest has a nice picture of a bechter sold by Julia auctions some time ago.
Thomas Del Mar had similar in last auction.
It is very popular to state these are russian. So what makes them Russian??
Are Indian links so different from Russian riveted links ?
I know one russian bechter here in Finland with cyrillic lettering on some rings. That I know, is a russian one, but for me most of these bechters on the market stated as a russian are from bikaneer armoury India.
Heres a pictures of a stated russian bechter. Round rivets.

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