Sutton Hoo mail coat - solid and riveted with copper rivets. -- myArmoury.com

Mart Shearer · Posted: Fri 07 Mar, 2014 5:06 am Post subject:

Thanks, Mikko.

I'm sure I had cut and pasted the link. Now I'm trying to figure out how that comma got into it? Anyway, I edited the original post as well to save future readers the same problem.

Eric S · Posted: Fri 07 Mar, 2014 5:24 am Post subject:

Mart Shearer · Posted: Fri 07 Mar, 2014 5:32 am Post subject:

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Wed 23 Apr, 2014 10:51 am Post subject:

Here is a glimpse of the mail being worn at the British Museum a week or so ago. I haven't yet met with Brian Gilmour concerning the copper rivets, but it could be that the copper rivets are there to add a bit of sparkle, even if that means compromising strength. I will try and get some full length shots soon.

J. Nicolaysen · Posted: Wed 23 Apr, 2014 11:04 am Post subject:

Very beautiful. I would think that if any mail were to have some decorative elements at the cost of protection, it'd be the Sutton Hoo hoard given the ornate beauty of the other items.

Glad you are doing the reproductions of all this. Like Dan Howard's Dendra and Agamemmnon cuirasses, it is very informative and wonderful for the rest of us to see.

Harry Marinakis · Posted: Wed 23 Apr, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject:

great thread

Tobias Capwell · Posted: Sat 26 Apr, 2014 8:23 am Post subject:

Hi Paul,

After seeing that detail of you in action at the British Museum I'm convinced that the purpose of the copper rivets is cosmetic. It looks fantastic!

This impressive visual effect completely justifies any slight decrease in strength of the joins. As we've said before, the history of armour is littered with examples of how some degree of protectiveness or functionality was sacrificed in the process of creating some form of rich decoration.

This seems like a really fascinating early example of warrior bling trumping all other concerns.

So cool!

T

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Sun 27 Apr, 2014 12:49 am Post subject:

Thank you all for your kind words.
I think that you are right Toby -- it is likely that the copper was used to add a bit of bling. It would still be interesting to try and gauge just how much strength has been sacrificed and I do hope to get some idea of that a bit later. I also wonder just how much of this type of armour was around. Finds of mail from the 5th to 7th centuries in Europe are so rare that it is difficult to speculate.

Cheers,

Paul

Tobias Capwell · Posted: Sun 27 Apr, 2014 4:42 am Post subject:

Right, for many uses copper rivets provide a perfectly respectable join. Something which is technically weaker might not actually be noticeably weaker in practical terms.

William P · Posted: Sun 27 Apr, 2014 6:47 am Post subject:

i think it might have to do with material consistancy,

one thing ive heard of time and again regarding period iron is the difficulty in achieving uniformity due to things like little slag inclusions and the like., perhaps copper alloy is something, being melted down and cast, that will have a much more uniform and consistant structure, so while they might not have as good a maximum strength, they might be more consistantly good.

Russ Ellis · Industry Professional

I've enjoyed this thread as well, thanks guys. Very informative. Paul, I'm just wondering if you wanted to go "full custom" in the future would it be worth trying your hand at mail making yourself? From what I understand it's not that difficult (although it's well outside my personal experience). Perhaps all you would need would be the appropriate source for wire (has to be easier) rather than an appropriate source for mail (has to be difficult). Just a thought?

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Sun 04 May, 2014 9:54 am Post subject:

I have thought about it Russ, but the time commitment at the moment is more than I want to make, but it will be a consideration for the future. I made a butted coat nearly twenty years ago and that took quite a while, I would think a solid and riveted coat will take longer. I can probably source wrought iron wire.

Mart Shearer · Posted: Sun 04 May, 2014 11:31 am Post subject:

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Sun 25 May, 2014 9:00 am Post subject:

Hi Mart -- I suspect that there is much in what you say; that copper rivets would sacrifice little (if any) in the way of strength to iron and may not have been much of a compromise. I still need to get over to Oxford to chat about it to Brian Gilmour but have been committed to too many other things recently. It should happen soon though.
Alan Williams may be right, although there was no iron left to test in that mail coat and the rivets were metallurgically examined to determine they were made of almost pure copper.

Mart Shearer · Posted: Mon 26 May, 2014 5:54 pm Post subject:

Paul,

I think that's simply a general hardness for wrought iron which could have been used in the Roman, Dark Ages. or early medieval period. The only thing I have seen from reports is "copper alloy", so any information of a source for nearly pure copper would be appreciated.

C.S. Smith mentioned a Turkish mail shirt (Met 36.25.489 E) having some copper rivets used, possibly in repair.
http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_5.pdf

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Fri 15 Aug, 2014 4:32 am Post subject:

Thanks Mart.

Sorry to leave this for so long, but it has been a busy summer.

I went to Oxford yesterday and was able to talk to Brian regarding the use of copper rivets and he feels, as others have already suggested, that they were included for their appearance and that the loss of strength, as opposed to iron, may not be all that great.

We were mostly there to discuss sword making.

I also went to the British Museum recently and had a close look at the original mass of corrosion that was the mail coat. I hadn't seen it for some time and was surprised at how small the links appear to be. I wasn't in a position to try and measure them, unfortunately. I may try to do that in the future, but I can see why they could only estimate the link diameter -- I think the estimate, though, is a bit on the large size as they, on average look smaller than 8mm to me.

Jared Smith · Posted: Fri 15 Aug, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject:

Mart Shearer · Posted: Fri 15 Aug, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject:

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Sat 16 Aug, 2014 1:30 am Post subject:

I agree Mart -- the copper rivets are part of the design and always intended to be there. To completely replace iron rivets with copper ones, I feel, would be a step too far.

I wonder how common a practice it was to use copper-based rivets? Unfortunately, there are so few examples to go on. For this period 5th to 7th century -- the Sutton Hoo mail coat is the mail find from England. As far as I am aware, all mail finds from the Continent, during this time, had iron rivets.

Timo Nieminen · Posted: Sat 16 Aug, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject:

A step too far? Metallurgically, copper rivets should be fine. Economics might say it's a step too far - or conspicuous consumption. (Though pure copper doesn't put us into the iron vs bronze comparison, which depends on tin prices.)

With rivets, you care about the toughness of the metal. Hardness doesn't matter. If you were making copper rings, then hardness would matter - too soft, and the rings are easy to cut. But nobody is going to be cutting the rivets in battle, since they're protected by the link.