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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 7:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For loose crosses, I cut small strips of brass the length of the opening in the cross, bend them into an L section and tap one side of the L down between tang and cross. Because the metal is soft, it's easy to adjust the thickness of the wedged part. The non-wedged part that sits on top of the cross under the grip and holds the wedged part in place can be "to airy thinness beat," to quote John Donne. This works fine without epoxy, but I usually fill the area around the tang with JB Weld before adding the wedges/shims.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Will S




Location: Bournemouth, UK
Joined: 25 Nov 2013

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah I didn't think of using thin sheet metal! I have some left over from making a fletching jig a while ago. I love Julien's idea regarding the coins - there's something very cool about that but without anything other than a few files I think it might be a touch beyond me. The thin brass sheet is more achievable I think.

So far it's looking pretty solid now it's packed with epoxy and wood, but I'll give it some rigorous testing and try and pull it apart and if it moves I'll replace the wood with brass.

Thanks guys!
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

here's my usual approach


 Attachment: 96.97 KB
wedges.gif


-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Will S




Location: Bournemouth, UK
Joined: 25 Nov 2013

Posts: 164

PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Sean.

Ok, so this is harder than I first thought...

Peening has been a complete disaster. I annealed the tang before assembling everything to make sure it was softer and easier to work. Crosspiece glued on and firm, grip glued on and firm (and I mean firm - no play at all!)

Pommel goes on, with an oval shape filed out so that the peen can lock in place.... And after about 2 hours of trying (I started with just over 4mm of tang exposed), I've got a cracked, split mushroom end and the pommel is still rotating freely. Hmph. Oh yeah, and now the cross and grip are both loose and rattling...



Help!
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Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Welcome to the heartbreak of sword cutlery!

That peen could easily be cleaned up with careful filing to remove those cracked and irregular borders. The middle of the peen looks clean and strong. The looseness is a pain, though. Here's what I'd do. Adjust accordingly and heed the advice of others as well.

With a very fine-toothed saw (X-acto saw, for example) or sharp knife, cut all the way around the top of the grip about 1/8" below the top and carefully remove that bit to create a gap between the top of the grip and the bottom of the pommel. Tap the pommel down to close that gap. This will expose the spread part of the tang and allow you file away the spread. This will allow the pommel to come off without reducing the height of the peen. If you're lucky, you'll still have enough tang to work with on re-peening.

Remove cross and grip and re-anneal the tang end (it's very hard and brittle after peening). Get it glowing, if possible. You can wrap a wet rag a few inches down the tang to prevent unwanted heating.

When the tang is cold, replace cross and grip with epoxy, wedges, etc. Tap down as firmly as possible and allow the glue to cure for as long as you can stand the waiting.

When cross and grip are solid, add fresh epoxy to the top of the grip and inside the pommel, mount the pommel and peen. Too much peen is a nightmare to work with, so hopefully you have only just enough to fill that depression in the pommel.

One other thing to consider is drilling a tiny hole in the base of the pommel, inserting a tight-fitting nail and cutting that off to leave about 1/4" protruding. When you drive the pommel down onto the tang that pin can drive into the top of the grip to help prevent turning as you peen. That and the epoxy should keep things tight then.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Will S




Location: Bournemouth, UK
Joined: 25 Nov 2013

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I love the tip about the nail, that's genius. I'll crack on and see where I end up. I'm in no rush, and I'm quite happy to treat this as a learning curve rather than try and get a museum quality piece on attempt one!

Thanks Sean!
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Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

At some point in every project, you just want to throw your tools and take up bingo or something. that's a good time to take a close look at surviving swords in books, museums and online. When you look closely you'll see asymmetry, wandering lines, file marks, etc. It's probably easier for us to get that stuff "perfect" than it is to match the dynamic quality of those swords.

You'll get through this little obstacle and feel even better about your accomplishment as a result.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FWIW, here's a tang I peened a few days ago. I've lost track of how many swords I've built, and every one presents different challenges. This time, I didn't have my cross and grip pressed down tightly when I measured for cutting the tang. As a result, when I started pressing down on the pommel and peening the hilt started compressing. That exposed ever more tang and I wound up with exactly the problem you had here--hilt rattling around and pommel wanting to bounce up and slip out of alignment as I got that tang harder and harder without actually securing the hilt. I finally got it tight and the epoxy will keep it secure, but what you see here is certainly not what I had the moment i stopped peening! it was spilling over the countersink and cracked, with a couple of big flakes calved off. Your peen actually looks much better in the center. But a few minutes with needle files and sandpaper cleaned it up just fine.

Another problem I had here was that I had everything laid out and ready for a quick assembly, mounted cross and grip and heated the tang to help with peening. I reached for my hammer and...it was not on the bench. Or in the tool chest. Or on the floor. Or anywhere I frantically searched without success while the tang got cold. I wound up with sticky epoxy, too much hammer for the job and much more frustration than usual. It happens.

I get better at everything with every project, but I'll never be able to do this stuff as well as I'd like, or with only half my brain tuned in.



 Attachment: 156.91 KB
peen_171.gif


-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Julien M




Location: Austin TX
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Was that a cold or hot peen?

As Sean said, the peen itself could be rounded with files and dremel (cutting wheels) and turn up very nicely.
But that's not your main issue here. Cross and even grip are rattling? as well as the pommel...
I would crack the grip open using chisels/hammer for clean openings and remove it, then hammer the pommel down and file the mushroom at the top as Sean said. Then secure the guard properly, and make sure you find a way to do that with the pommel too - Usually by enlarging the hole sideways so that the tang goes in (lower opening of the pommel). I peened a gen 2 that had a threaded tang and the pommel was spinning. I filed the tang square and redid the pommel top hole square too (I asked a local garage to weld the round hole closed and started from scratch). A lot of planning, but now it won't turn around for sure.

Ideally all elements should be secured rest on the tang by themselves (cross, pommel). Then the grip goes on.
It's one way, you can also use a compression fit.

Peening isn't hard, but you need to be quick while juggling with extreme heat, epoxy that doesn't like heat much and is sticky and messy, wood that will burn if the tang overheats, your sword blade that won't take overheating kindly either etc...there is definitely room for disaster and it can be nerve racking. So make sure you sequence the plan in your head before you turn the gas on. Also 4 mm of protruding tang is a hell of a lot of steel to spread. 1 or 2 mm should be more than enough.

Good luck, this is indeed a learning curve so this is no failure, just a step along the way.

J
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i had a rattle at the base of the grip on a sword i made my nephew. i loosened the leather there, drilled a hole in the core through to the tang and injected the core/cross with glue from a syringe
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Ben Coomer




Location: Colorado
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, take heart that the peen that secures my Windlass Type XIV looks just a tiny bit better than yours. Its uneven, and lopsided, and a peculiar parallelogram in shape. And this is a production sword.

Just looking at your peen, I don't think you'll have too much problems filing it to something more presentable. Once you sort out the other problems, of course.
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Will S




Location: Bournemouth, UK
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's done! I removed everything, reglued and fitted and re-peened.

It won't be as strong as it could be, as the tang was round right into the top of the grip so there was no way the pommel would stay where it was unless secured somehow. You guys are mentioning hammering the pommel into place - this one slips down the tang until it sits 4" into the grip so that should be an example of how loose it is!

I wish I had read Julien's reply about filling the pommel with a weld and trying again before tonight, but either way the cross and grip are solid and packed with epoxy now. The pommel is peened, and it's pretty damn ugly because I don't know anything about sizes and spread amounts yet so I made the oval way too wide for the peen but it seems solid. You can see the gap each side sadly but there ya go I guess.

I reckon one day I'll pull it apart and make a new pommel and try again but at the moment my impatience and excitement about having a finished sword is overtaking! It is worth noting I think that I won't be using this for any combat and probably only the lightest of cutting.

It's currently sitting with its cord under-wrap drying and tomorrow I'll be applying the leather grip.
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Will S




Location: Bournemouth, UK
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2014 2:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok so here are some pics. Try not to laugh at the peen attempt. It's a miserable failure but its strong and will serve as motivation to improve next time.





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Bryan Heff




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2014 4:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that peen is just fine, looks good. I actually think the perfect peen is a bit overrated anyway, but that is just me. I think it looks really good.

I in the case of a 3 foot piece of sharpened steel that you may be swinging around, I would take a less than perfect good strong peen over a perfect peen that may not be as strong any day Of course if you can get both that's great. For a first go around with this I think you did a great job. My first (and still only peen attempt) was a nightmare and it looks terrible, but it got the job done, the sword rings like a bell, and I learned a lot.

The church is near but the roads are icy. The tavern is far but I will walk carefully. - Russian Proverb
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Will S




Location: Bournemouth, UK
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2014 4:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Bryan!

I honestly can't thank you guys enough for taking so much time to guide me through this stuff and being so generous with your comments. This has been crazy fun, and I honestly thought at the beginning that I wouldn't be doing any more of these but HA! As if! I'm already planning two others.

Quick pic update - a better shot of the weathered, "beaten up" pommel, and some risers made from cord twisted Flemish-style like bowstrings. Still need to add one other riser in the middle I think, just to balance everything aesthetically.



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Julien M




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2014 5:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Will.

Good work, and good pace too!

If your peen makes the sword structurally sound, then other considerations are merely aesthetic. That said, I am a maniac myself Happy so I would ask someone able to weld to fill the recesses around the flatten peen then I would sand it flush. It's just another step. Your peen may even be completely invisible. That said your pommel has many wear marks, so the peen looks the part Happy I have all what I need to peen my current sword project since yesterday, but cleaning all the parts from scratches and other workshop blemishes will likely take me quiet some time...and the finish is always easier when the sword is not assembled.

I like the raiser settings. I use thinner cord as these build thickness quickly with the leather on top. a good test is to take your piece of leather, damped, then press on the grip. You'll see what these look like.

Use the thinnest leather you can find. It makes all the difference.

Cheers,

Julien

edit: you could blacken your pommel and guard with perma blue, these marks would be hard to spot. I think you wanted to age the sword too. Salt and vinegar in a spray bottle works just great, did that on a coustille below. I also combined permablue + salt vinegar. I quiet like what it yields.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/comnder0...57374_.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/comnder0...57375_.jpg
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Will S




Location: Bournemouth, UK
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2014 6:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks mate! Salt and vinegar is exactly what I used for this. I added the scratches afterwards with a file to emulate a constantly used item, but I don't know how accurate that is. Aging metal is a skill all on its own which I'm still trying to learn! I actually tried perma blue paste first but it looked too new and deep in colour, so went for the salt vinegar idea. I might do it again once the leather is on, if it's not old looking enough.

Thanks for the tips on the risers and cord - I probably should have used thinner cord and I might pull these off before the leather and do it again.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2014 6:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The idea that peens should be perfect and/or invisible doesn't match historical specimens. Many modern consumers are much pickier than our ancestors were about these things. The peen looks fine. Don't obsess. Happy
Happy

ChadA

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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2014 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
The idea that peens should be perfect and/or invisible doesn't match historical specimens. Many modern consumers are much pickier than our ancestors were about these things. The peen looks fine. Don't obsess. Happy


I agree completely. I think it looks very historical.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's an interesting shot that shows two important things:
• minus the grip, the pommel has dropped to expose the peen
• the peen isn't so much mushroom-shaped as it is funnel-shaped.



 Attachment: 244.08 KB
peen.gif


-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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