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Matthew Amt
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William P
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 Posted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 5:05 am Post subject: |
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I was under the impression that the phillistines formed at least part of the sea peoples
i think i need to do some reading of that article since i have this hunch in my head that the sea peoples were a direct or indirect result of the path of devestation left by the judeans as they cut their way through palestine, displacing the peoples of the region, pushing them into contact with major powers in a similar way that the huns drove various tribes such as the goths before them, pushing them into the path , and therefore conflict, with the romans.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Personally I tend to think if there is a group, and with so many movements all over the world of nomadic groups why not, it is very likely it was something like a domino effect. You let loose larger scale raids than the region is used to and the next you know alienated locals join in and the pragmatists. This way the look of a larger more concerted system of attacks could be thought to have existed but in reality have very little real cohesion.
I think something really was going on around this period. There seem to be an uptick in records of raids from what I gather. That said is this a cause to these falling and declining states or a symptom?
The Hittites fall around 1200 which is right for the sea peoples raids. But the Hittites has been involved with major wars with many of their large empire neighbors for generations, the New kingdom of Egypt for example. So if the Sea Peoples did attack was the fall of the Hittites the result of generations of massive resources spend on war, the sea peoples, both or an even larger numbers of factors leading to it.
People like to see a climatic event as the reason for a fall. My experience so far tends to look at falls of states and such as a culmination of many events and factors.
But that is my take on it. Evidence is light. I do think there is enough evidence not to dismiss massive movements and raids were they uniform? Could be. Might not be. I am thinking the domino effect would be a way to see more a large interregional series of raids that ultimately would need or perhaps have real cohesion.
RPM
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | Personally I tend to think if there is a group, and with so many movements all over the world of nomadic groups why not, it is very likely it was something like a domino effect. You let loose larger scale raids than the region is used to and the next you know alienated locals join in and the pragmatists. This way the look of a larger more concerted system of attacks could be thought to have existed but in reality have very little real cohesion.
I think something really was going on around this period. There seem to be an uptick in records of raids from what I gather. That said is this a cause to these falling and declining states or a symptom?
The Hittites fall around 1200 which is right for the sea peoples raids. But the Hittites has been involved with major wars with many of their large empire neighbors for generations, the New kingdom of Egypt for example. So if the Sea Peoples did attack was the fall of the Hittites the result of generations of massive resources spend on war, the sea peoples, both or an even larger numbers of factors leading to it.
People like to see a climatic event as the reason for a fall. My experience so far tends to look at falls of states and such as a culmination of many events and factors.
But that is my take on it. Evidence is light. I do think there is enough evidence not to dismiss massive movements and raids were they uniform? Could be. Might not be. I am thinking the domino effect would be a way to see more a large interregional series of raids that ultimately would need or perhaps have real cohesion.
RPM |
Climatic problem can certainly be a trigger in a society already experiencing problem. Though it is rarely THE cause. A stable healthy society will overcome a climatic problem or else no culture and society could exist so long as we have evidence for historically.
In it quite possible that the immense Laki fissure-eruption on Iceland 1783/84 (10 months of lava constantly send up 100 meters in the air) caused a further temperature decrease in the already ongoing Little Ice age. It caused bad harvest that could have let to the French Revolution. Off course it was how the nobles acted (or more rightly lack hereof) in the face of this agricultural crisis that largely gave huge discontent in the population.
So climate deterioration could be a trigger for local uprisings against the Bronze Age Empires lead by “God-rulers“, that carries momentum as news travel they actually achieved successes in one place and then another.
Though the real cause was probably discontent with the ruling classes - if they are “gods“ then they are to be praised when it goes well and to be blamed when it goes badly. The problem was probably in the rulership-propaganda in the Bronze Age, that will have a hard time explaining away a really serious climatic crisis. The bronze age had been blessed with very warm weather (today seen as the worst threat to humanity by some), so they were unprepared to have an efficient response to this crisis.
Iron Age leaders were probably an innovation to a ruling “warlord“ (that could have divine ancestry, but were mostly human) and only really Egypt survived as an older Bronze Age example of having a God (the pharaoh) by the helm.
A wild guess:
Maybe it was the invention of the “sea people“ by the Egyptian that was the correct response to the crisis. Instead of trying to put down local uprising by mere force, everything can instead be blamed on a “foreign invader“ - so we have to stand together as Egyptians under our God-king if we are to survive. Either you are Egyptian or “sea people“......and sea people denotes something very foreign by an Egyptian.
So all these Sea people are likely masses of local armies under a leader (warlord) that plunders to keep his momentum going (a bit like Spartacus in Italy). The “raison d'etre“ for the warlord becomes one of success in battle and feeding of his followers and receiving the spoils of war.
The bronze age collapse seems to mark a change in perceived leadership among the population. Most of Europe becomes extremely decentralized in the early Iron Age and it is first with the Greeks and especially Romans we go back to Empire building.
Sadly we know very little about possible Empires in Northern Bronze Age Europe, but it seemed that people moved great distances and you had definite long range power structures of nobility. You have a definite Nordic Bronze Age that seemed to be one specific culture and perhaps also one language (whether already Proto-Germanic or an dialect of the likely earlier RomanoCeltic-Germanic-BaltoSlavic supergroup?). Also England seem to be cultural and military center node in the Bronze Age.
They don't seem to be “just a periphery“.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sun 08 Feb, 2015 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Niels,
Still works for me. Climate, war, insurrection, whatever the incident(s). If the society or civilization is strong it can usually take one or more of these and deal with them. It is when they are fronted with multiple issue and especially already weak when things get dicey.
I think this is an interesting idea and not without historic similarities.
"Maybe it was the invention of the “sea people“ by the Egyptian that was the correct response to the crisis. Instead of trying to put down local uprising by mere force, everything can instead be blamed on a “foreign invader“ - so we have to stand together as Egyptians under our God-king if we are to survive. Either you are Egyptian or “sea people“......and sea people denotes something very foreign by an Egyptian."
Create an enemy over a number of well known or publicized raids or events on neighboring countries. Very 1984.
"Also England seem to be cultural and military center node in the Bronze Age.
They don't seem to be “just a periphery“."
I did not say this was the case, so why state that I did? In fact I am not seeing who you are trying to contradict here with this statement.
RPM
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William P
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| Posted: Tue 17 Feb, 2015 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Dans book has arrived, which answers some things and looks like it'll be an amazing resource
however it leaves me also with some questions, partly because im not very good with visualising objects based on words alone
one is regarding the khopesh, i know of the design found in king tuts tomb, but i also wonder about http://www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/arms...hopesh/172 this design as well. i also realise this design shows up a fair bit in artwork too.
opne is the queston of linen armour http://www.larp.com/hoplite/MBEarmr.jpg from http://www.larp.com/hoplite/bronze.html what's the story behind this armour piece? and is it reasonably plausible in design? since i intend on also entering ALHF grade reenactment combat with that egyptian kit at times (with suitably blunted versions of egyptian weaponry) wearing some infantry appropriate body armour would go a long way to saving me from bruising and impacts on the field)
lastly, dan you showed a section of scale armour by todd feinmen, however im a tad confused about it since you made no mention as to what part of the body irt is meant to protect or if it's simply a test piece (figure 12 in the colour plates)
in addition, what's the authenticity level of the shield http://www.larp.com/hoplite/MBegshld.jpg
(side note, its kinda mind boggling to see the similarities between the egyptian helmet and later medieval bascinet helmets
and, matthew, i'm cuirious about the scale armour shirt you have, made of rows of bronze and rawhide. what are the dimensions of these scales im guessing around 3 inches long?
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Tue 17 Feb, 2015 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Not a clue! I've never researched Egyptian stuff, though at the time that Michael sent me his photos I must have thought it was at least close enough to add to my page. There's a LOT of Egyptian artwork, including sculpture and scale models, so it shouldn't be hard to get at least a general visual idea of what's right.
The shape is right, from what I know. Wood planks covered with hide is certainly right, though we all have used fabric instead of leather at times (and the ancients used linen sometimes, too!), but I don't know the details of the boss.
| Quote: | | and, matthew, i'm cuirious about the scale armour shirt you have, made of rows of bronze and rawhide. what are the dimensions of these scales im guessing around 3 inches long? |
Right, 3" tall by an inch wide, for the scales on the body. Those on the shoulders are a little smaller. Both are based on finds from Troy. When you see striped armor in Egyptian art, it's likely scale armor with different-colored rows of scales. From the Nuzi tablets, we know that shirts of all rawhide scales were far more common than bronze ones, though as I understand that could have been stocks of state-issued gear for charioteers. (And of course that's not in *Egypt*, but it's an interesting comparison.) I think Dan's book spells that out a little more clearly, don't take my word for it!
Matthew
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William P
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| Posted: Tue 17 Feb, 2015 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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The last question about the shield is its size and general dimensions. From what ive seen in art they I think are about the usual thigh to shoulder size but im not too sure about its dimensions
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Wed 18 Feb, 2015 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | Niels,
Still works for me. Climate, war, insurrection, whatever the incident(s). If the society or civilization is strong it can usually take one or more of these and deal with them. It is when they are fronted with multiple issue and especially already weak when things get dicey.
I think this is an interesting idea and not without historic similarities.
"Maybe it was the invention of the “sea people“ by the Egyptian that was the correct response to the crisis. Instead of trying to put down local uprising by mere force, everything can instead be blamed on a “foreign invader“ - so we have to stand together as Egyptians under our God-king if we are to survive. Either you are Egyptian or “sea people“......and sea people denotes something very foreign by an Egyptian."
Create an enemy over a number of well known or publicized raids or events on neighboring countries. Very 1984.
"Also England seem to be cultural and military center node in the Bronze Age.
They don't seem to be “just a periphery“."
I did not say this was the case, so why state that I did? In fact I am not seeing who you are trying to contradict here with this statement.
RPM |
I'm sorry if my post came out as a contradiction to yours, since that was not the intention. I was just elaborating aspects of the discussion taking up the idea - you mentioned - about climatic factors. I was not disagreeing with you.
I was responding to a “general trend in history and archaeology“: The idea of a “single street highway“ of innovation taking place in the classical world and then arriving eventually in the periphery.
Studies of Bronze Age with regard to weapon technology (both for chariots in Sintasha in Russia and bronze age weapons in England and Denmark) makes it fairly unlikely, that this was not always the case. It seems that these area actually were trendsetting and the innovations then later reached the classical world.
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