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Mark T
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 Posted: Tue 05 Aug, 2014 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Nicholls wrote: | | 2 weeks ago I didnt even know what a Sallet was! |
Hi Michael,
If two weeks ago, you didn't know what a sallet was, I'd recommend spending another two weeks - at least! - of researching everything you can about them: different styles across regions and times, extant examples, examples of modern reproductions including reviews, and so on.
When it comes to commissioning armour, research - and budget! - is everything.
Ben's considered comments above, especially, deserve re-reading and reflection.
Having said that, I have a few sallets, some including from makers mentioned in posts above. If you're really wanting to pull the trigger quickly, then I think Stanislav Prosek (Mac) will give you good quality for the figures mentioned - a sallet by Mac was the first one I bought, and remains one of my favourites.
Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Theo Squires
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| Posted: Tue 05 Aug, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark T wrote: | | Michael Nicholls wrote: | | 2 weeks ago I didnt even know what a Sallet was! |
...
If two weeks ago, you didn't know what a sallet was, I'd recommend spending another two weeks - at least! - of researching everything you can about them: different styles across regions and times, extant examples, examples of modern reproductions including reviews, and so on.
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I second this recommendation. Spending more time researching armour is rewarding in itself but will also result in you getting something that you'll be happy with for longer. It may also give you more time to save up some more shekels for your budget. A great resource for photos of originals is http://carlkop.home.xs4all.nl/armsandarmour/.
Keep in mind that if you buy armour components individually, it will be more difficult to get them to all fit together well, both stylistically and physically.
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Michael Nicholls
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| Posted: Tue 05 Aug, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks again guys. When I say I didnt know what a Sallet was, I meant the Word Sallet - I have always liked the later Gothic styled suits etc. Its been a good 20 yrs since I was last into armour. Back before the internet etc I made myself a sword and suit, which I now plan to use as a rough template to re make from proper steel to a higher standard etc. Anyways im more than happy with Mac. From my searching etc you can easily spot a well made & finished item. Mac has been very helpful with his emails also.
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Felix Kratzer
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| Posted: Sat 09 Aug, 2014 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
you could also try Matuls in Poland. Three months delivery, has some nice examples of sallets (I ordered a bascinet I could find nowhere else and am perfectly happy with it!).
Give him a try...
Cheers,
Felix
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Felix Kratzer
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| Posted: Sat 09 Aug, 2014 2:29 am Post subject: one or two eye slots with historical sallets? |
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Hi everyone,
due to Michael Nicholls' request on sallets I browsed the net for a while and found different shapes, also differing by the number of eye slots.
It seems to me like the two-slots-versions was more common with the so called "black sallets" with munition armour, instead of the more expensive ones worn with a full armour. Nevertheless I can recall having seen some historical depictions of sallets with full armour featuring two eye slots...
Does anyone have information when or under what circumstances there where favoured two eye slots or how common they were at all? Looks like the single eye slot was by far more common....
cheers,
Felix
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Mark T
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| Posted: Sat 09 Aug, 2014 4:09 am Post subject: |
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Hi Felix,
I've just had a look through my collection of historical sallet images. The only non-'black' sallet I found with what we might call 'two eye slots' is the Castle Žleby sallet below. As with 'black' sallets, this one dates from fairly late in sallet development.
There are other deep-visored sallets which also have the two eyeslots, which you can see on the Painted armour thread. If there are any others, I'd also be interested to see them.
Looking at these again, it raises an interesting, if possibly pedantic question: some of these sallets clearly seem to have two separate eye slots, as we see on other types of helmet design, while some look more like a single occularium with a reinforcing piece in the middle. I've not seen a discussion about this before, and am not sure whether there are significant differences in the design and construction between them ... or if it even really matters!
On another note, I think we need to be a bit cautious in linking 'black' sallets with munition armour. Black sallets come in for a lot of bad press, usually because some are thinner-gauge metal, and their finish is considered 'rough'. However, as some researchers have noted, they were usually covered with paint, fabric, or possibly both; this would both add to their resilience, as well as have a far different outer aesthetic than (some of) the ones that have been left to us without their coverings. There are also theories that they might have been used in slightly different contexts than the earlier, heavier types. Having said that, some black sallets have very similar finishes to what we see in extant earlier sallet forms (though whether this is the result of overzealous polishing at some point in their past, I don't know).
We also have the multiple images of Dürer, which show black sallets - some of which appear to be highly customised - worn with high-quality armour.
Finally, I often wonder if part of the derision that some have used when discussing black sallets is simply a matter of aesthetics - if you appreciate the form and skill in making an earlier visored sallet that has a close-fitting visor, and a bowl that transitions beautifully from fitting the back of the head to a tail, then the 'double ski-jump' effect of the angled visor common on black sallets, and the fairly straight tail, can seem a bit crude at first blush. However, the more I look at the lines involved - and having seen the progress photos of a smith making my black sallet - I realised that the visor design is in some ways more complex than earlier sallets - and making it to allow the fitting of the velvet cover is a high skill indeed. Just some thoughts.
Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
Last edited by Mark T on Wed 13 Aug, 2014 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sat 09 Aug, 2014 11:56 am Post subject: |
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You don't by clothes without trying them on unless you are absolutely sure the manufacturers sizes are spot on, so i wouldn't spend hundreds on a bit of inflexible metal without the armourer measuring you and possibly fittings. Many jousters are now going down the route of body casts to ensure the armourer has as much info as possible to hand, vital if you are in a different country.
Lobster tailed sallets have a relatively small area and time span of use and are rather specific so I'd be sure that's what i wanted. My first ever helmet was a lobster, bought when i knew nothing about 26 years ago and it was a naive purchase I regretted almost immediately.
Best of luck with the purchase, you'll immediately want something else as soon as it arrives, that's the way of things!
Griff
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Felix Kratzer
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| Posted: Wed 13 Aug, 2014 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Mark T,
thanks for your detailed and long answer! Took me a while to respond due to lot of overtime... :-(
Unfortunately this is the very sallet that I recall having two eye-slots (except for the "black sallets" - but it is a really beautiful example, don't you think? What time would you say it is from?
I wasn't aware this is a later model - but it is still one version that does not cover the mouth , right? (other than the painted sallets from around 1500). However, this sallets put Zleby Castle on my wishlist... :-)
The black sallets: yes, I think it is particularly Dürers painting "Ritter, Tod und Teufel" (Knight, death and devil) - right?
Actually, I really like these black sallets... when did they first appear?
I really wonder what made a wearer of a sallet choose a model with a movable visor or one which is made from one single piece?
What would be the advantage of one over the other? One might think that both versions co-existed - with no clear majority...
Anyway: I like them all - you're right: Schallern sind sexy! :-)) Cheers!!!
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Mark T
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| Posted: Thu 14 Aug, 2014 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Hi Felix,
The sallet is shown in the book Chladná krása plátové zbroje (The cold beauty of the plate armour: The plate armour from 15th-17th centuries in collections of museums, castles and manor houses in the Czech Republic) by Stanislav Hrbatý (Hradec Kralove: Museum východnich Čech v Hradci Králové, 2006).
Here's what the accompanying English-language translation says about the sallet:
| Quote: | Sallet, about 1485, Germany
(The State Castle of Źleby, Inv. No. ZL 6691)
Mark: The helmet bears no mark.
Weight: 2,318 kg |
To answer your first question, I personally don't find it a 'beautiful' example - it's moving towards the 'boxy' shape of the similar-period and later 'full face'/bellows visor/sallet-close helms' (not that those are all the same, but they have a similarity of form). However, I don't find it as 'clunky' as most of those others, and the shape has a kind of 'jauntiness' that appeals to me. Perhaps part of this is the transition from bowl to tail - this was done so gracefully on many of the earlier sallets, and becomes more abrupt in some later ones, including other lobster-tails. I do really like the cheesiness of the flame job! I'd still love to find the funds and time one day to get Arma Bohemia's repro from and replicate it.
Yes, 'Ritter, Tod, und Teufel' is probably the best-known example of the suite of Dürer images that has a 'black' sallet, possibly better called Große Schaller. There's another from 1498, as well as one from 1508. There are also two sketches/studies by Dürer, which provide enough detail and difference to retain as examples of the form in art. From memory, there's only one other paining I've seen that clearly shows a Große Schaller; given their relatively long lifespan (for that time, at least!), I'd hope there are more out there. (Having said that, it might be time for me to re-visit Hale's Artists and Warfare in the Renaissance.
As for dating, most discussions I've seen tend to use 'late 15th century'. The RA IV.12 and IV.13 at Leeds are given as about 1490, as were the two (I think?) sold by Hermann Historica in the last decade or so, and the one from Peter Finer, showing in the "Black" Sallet, circa 1490 thread. I don't think I have dates for the half a dozen others I have on file, though some should be easy to track down, such as the Bayerisches.
Given the museum's datings to c.1490, and Dürer's works spanning 1498 to 1513, then it looks like we have a documentable window of 1490-1515 or so. Given that we see so much other experimentation in sallet forms from 1480-1490, it wouldn't surprise me if Große Schallern were also developed in that decade. Perhaps someone with dates on the other 6-10 extant examples can add dates here.
As for visors, check out that thread above ... there's some discussion about whether the visor on Große Schallern is meant to even be used as per a normal visor - ie, seeing through the occularium - or simply left tilted above the eyeline.
For earlier-period sallets, I've personally never understood why someone 'back in the day' would choose to not have the flexibility of a visor if they could afford one. But, as with so much of this kind of speculation - which we tend to often cast as purely about functionality - there could have been a range of other factors: regional differences, what was passed down in generations, what just happened to be available 'off the rack' if someone was suddenly scrambled into service - or claimed on the battlefield or from returned spoils of war, personal aesthetics, the easier maintenance of single-piece sallets ... who knows? (Perhaps Sean will chime in here; I know he was hankering after a single-piece sallet a while back.)
Anyway, like you, I like them all too! (Well, most of them.  ) Personally, I find the regional, time, and stylistic differences so fascinating that I don't think I would have any brainspace left to ever study other kinds of helmets, even if I did like their forms. Lucky for me, I'm a bit 'monogamous' about Schallern! 
Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Ben van Koert
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| Posted: Thu 14 Aug, 2014 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Mark T wrote: | Hi Felix,
I've just had a look through my collection of historical sallet images. The only non-'black' sallet I found with what we might call 'two eye slots' is the Castle Žleby sallet below. As with 'black' sallets, this one dates from fairly late in sallet development.
There are other deep-visored sallets which also have the two eyeslots, which you can see on the Painted armour thread. If there are any others, I'd also be interested to see them.
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Double slotted visors an salutes are quite rare. There’s also this much earlier one from the Victoria & Albert collection: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O92981/sallet-unknown/
Don’t focus too much on the information next to the piece as it’s totally off. This is a very typical piece for the 1460/1470’s, very stylish for the period and even though the tag says ‘gothic’, it’s very likely to be italian export or locally made.
The one I know with a reenforcement bar in it is the famous helmschmied Sigismund one, but if you know any more I’m very interested.
I’ve got a reproduction of this piece by Emrys which I need to get restored sometime soon:
To go back to the discussion: Have you really thought about what you want to do with the rest of your kit? All the helmets you’ve mentioned until now were all very late 15th century, mostly 1490’s. Most people fail to realise that when they want to do 15th century reenactment, they say they want to do 3rd quarter of the 15th century, but their armour doesn’t reflect this.
In the last quarter, especially in Germany, you see very radical changes in armour style. High gothic is all very much science fiction when you compare it to stuff only thirty years earlier.
Munition grade armour is also a very misunderstood thing.. Munition grade is mostly different in details and finish and SLIGHTLY more crude to the eye, but then again that fall into my category of finish too. It’s still highly functional and still has very difficult compound curves, like you see in the higher end stuff.
Don’t fall in the trap of buying cheap tat and try to let it pass as munition grade because the shapes are wrong.
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Edward Lee
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| Posted: Thu 14 Aug, 2014 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Munition grade armour is also a very misunderstood thing.. Munition grade is mostly different in details and finish and SLIGHTLY more crude to the eye, but then again that fall into my category of finish too. It’s still highly functional and still has very difficult compound curves, like you see in the higher end stuff. |
What kind of quality did munition grade armors have? Were they thicker than what we have today and heat treated? I read it somewhere stating they were mostly made from wrought iron with lots of slacks.
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Ben van Koert
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| Posted: Thu 14 Aug, 2014 4:58 am Post subject: |
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The material quality would definitely be lower on the cheap stuff. I’m not sure about the hardening.
Most modern reproduction armour is too homogenous in thickness, historical pieces thicknesses differ from where the protection would be needed most. For example, in a breastplate the thickness could go from as thick as 4 mm in the front center to 1 mm on the sides.
In the quality replicas I’ve seen over the last years there was a small trend of going as light and thin as possible, but even then I’d like to have mass where it still is beneficial to help absorb blows better, so helmet and breastplate. In my personal armour my arms are 0,5 mm at it’s thinnest point (vambraces), but at the front the layers sometimes add up to about 5 or 6 mm. (breastplate 3mm, plackard 2mm, bevor 1,6mm, wrapper 2mm, bottom lame of grand bascinet 2mm)
In addition to my earlier statement about munition grade; later on some style did get a lot more crude. Still, those pieces had much more shape that todays cheap stuff: https://www.google.nl/search?q=almain+rivet&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=76bsU4PeBOWx0QXS74GIDg&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=2208&bih=1194
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Edward Lee
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| Posted: Thu 14 Aug, 2014 5:36 am Post subject: |
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That was very informative, thank you.
I always though heat treating was a common thing in armor like they did to swords. It seems shaping also strengthen the metal.
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Michael Nicholls
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| Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: Which Sallet |
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Been a long time! - for some reason I can now access this site from work though which is great.
So - I went ahead with Stan ( Mac ) for a Sallet, and after picking the style I wanted & sending head measurements etc etc, he made me up the following :
I'II see if this post works...
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Michael Nicholls
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| Posted: Mon 10 Nov, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hopefully my pics have worked. I've been Very impressed with Stan's work, he's sent me updates/Pics every step of the way etc etc, and quite quick turn around. Only snag to all this is that my helmet is actually here in Australia, But is being held by FedEx as Aus Customs dunno what t make of it yet. Hopefully I *might* finally get it from them this week, once they decide how much they want to Tax me on it. Very Very annoying as it's been here since last Thursday now, and I have to call them every morning to findout what the go is..
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Mark T
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| Posted: Wed 12 Nov, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Michael,
Glad to see you went with Mac. I think his eye for sallets of many styles is fantastic.
Love the look of yours, and can't wait to see more photos of it!
Good luck with Customs; they usually don't have any problems, once they establish that it's not ballistic armour!
Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Michael Nicholls
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| Posted: Wed 12 Nov, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Yeap Very happy with Mac  I had to pay $240 Aus for Customs/Tax, which is *ok* as Mac gave me free FedEx postage as he was unhappy with how long it was taking him to make my helmet - he had to make up some swords - I wasn't actually bothered about that, so again Impressed with his customer service! I've already asked him to quote me up a Armet helmet next with optional bolt on Joust plates. It's awesome how he sends you files of pics of the real deal that u can then say Yeap I like pic. number 5, make me that one I'II upload some of the 'being made ' pics now.
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Michael Nicholls
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| Posted: Wed 12 Nov, 2014 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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More pics. One in the glass is the museum version, I asked that he re-angle the lobster tail bit on mine. Anyways FedEx are scheduled to deliver it to me today, so will see how well it actually fits. I'm not going to be actually wearing it for combat or anything but still be interesting to wear it. Meanwhile I have a nice large sheet of steel in my workshop at home that one day I'II attempt to hammer into armour. I'm amazed at how much a good sized Anvil costs! can get a nice Helmet from Mac for the same $$$ 
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Michael Nicholls
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| Posted: Wed 12 Nov, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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hmm it wont let me add the museum pic as its part of a large pic file.
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Mark T
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| Posted: Thu 13 Nov, 2014 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Mike sent me the pics of the original so they could be resized and uploaded here.
We're not sure if the photos taken in the museum are Stanislav/Mac's or someone else's - if they're yours, please let me know so I can give full credit (or remove them if that's your preference - however, it's rare to see pics of this one online, so having them here is a valuable contribution!).
Great to see Mac's work in comparison with the original. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: his work with schallern is top-notch. Mike, if you ever want to find this one a new home, please let me know!
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Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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