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J. Nicolaysen
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 Posted: Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Greg | Quote: | An interesting take on the discussion to this point on this subject, not true in every case but appears to be a common enough theme...... the "I can't stand" statements seem to then be followed by either an admission or a revelation of some level of ignorance. I have noticed this in myself; I can think of a number of subjects that for me would have fit the intent of the OP at one time, but upon further discovery, research and learning no longer occupy that spot.
Just an observation....... interesting none the less |
Exactly. I think that by hearing and seeing examples of why people like certain things, another person is more likely to at least grudginly admit "It's not for me, but I can sure see why YOU like it."
It's hard to get such a large appreciation of EVERYTHING, more than a dilettante's view, but I have to say that this site and a few other resources have expanded my horizons and I have found I like some things more than I thought I would ever appreciate.
Weapons are great, but if someone asks me about it, it is the insight into a history and culture that armour and weapons reveal to me, because they are made of materials that have survived through the ages. War itself is not a glorious thing, but the actions and motivations of warriors sometimes were honorable. When I see something like a Rapier I do not at this point get an insight into anything, but I'm happy to be educated.
Thanks for the replies everyone I hope there are more examples of historical examples or excellent reproductions that can enlighten us.
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Spoken like a true spathologist David.
It is cool that many find their own niche, trees and branches. It is even better for me that the early modern sector remains a pretty open ocean for those of us collecting period pieces. I met a fellow a few weeks ago who was beaming and showing an axe head on his phone. A 2,000 year old axe head. Truly way cool but not what I would spend on.
Peel back the layers and one would find me a person that can sympathize without necessarily agreeing. Or appreciate without needing. My personal interests concerning swords are tied closer to the history and places.
I would have to say any without interest in a specific genre will find their time better spent pursuing their own interests. My phone wallpaper is a period illustration of two Queens Rangers, one likely with a Potter sabre. Who cares? Right?  something to think about. I don't always dream of spadroons but manage to critique all I see. 
Cheers
GC
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Isaac D Rainey
Location: Evansville Indiana Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Tue 14 Oct, 2014 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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I can't bring myself to like the Japanese swords. Maybe because the katana is the most over hyped weapon in the world, and many fans of the katana will fervently defend silly inaccuracies to push that it is the best sword ever made and that all "western" weapons pale in comparison to it. All I see is a short two handed saber with very little hand protection or counterweight at the hilt. I prefer swords like the Polish szabla and Indian pulwar for cutting weapons.
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Chris Friede
Location: Austin Joined: 15 Mar 2014
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Tue 14 Oct, 2014 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I like the katanas as a practical engineering solution..."my steel really blows...how can I make it better?"...but the hype and exceedingly nit picky details are off-putting. It's the advocates that put me off. Well, let me be more accurate...it is the katana/ninja/otaku fanboys that put me off.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Isaac D Rainey wrote: | | I can't bring myself to like the Japanese swords. Maybe because the katana is the most over hyped weapon in the world, and many fans of the katana will fervently defend silly inaccuracies to push that it is the best sword ever made and that all "western" weapons pale in comparison to it. All I see is a short two handed saber with very little hand protection or counterweight at the hilt. I prefer swords like the Polish szabla and Indian pulwar for cutting weapons. |
| Chris Friede wrote: | | I like the katanas as a practical engineering solution..."my steel really blows...how can I make it better?"...but the hype and exceedingly nit picky details are off-putting. It's the advocates that put me off. Well, let me be more accurate...it is the katana/ninja/otaku fanboys that put me off. |
Why would you let some unknown forum dwellers with inaccurate information influence your opinion on any subject?
Issac, the "pulwar" is an Afghanistan sword, the tulwar / talwar is an Indian sword, as for the lack of hand protection on Japanese swords, the Japanese preferred to use armor for hand protection rather than an elaborate guard. I have held several katana from the 1900s to the 1500s and they were all very light and quick weapons, I saw no need for a counter weight. They were designed for their intened use under a specific set of circumstances.
Chris, Japanese swords were a very practicle solution, the steps that went into making one from start to finish is astonding and at the same time they were quite fragile and delicate, meant for slicing through flesh, not armor as some people like to image.
Last edited by Eric S on Wed 15 Oct, 2014 2:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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T. Kew
Location: London, UK Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew P. Adams wrote: | Viking swords.
There, I said it, and its something I've thought about a bit. Short cutting blades designed for mass combat, none of the romance of one on one combat, and they lack the grace of a longsword.
Obviously just one mans opinion!
And as pretty as pattern welding gets it's still a way to get good performance out of flawed material.
I'd love to hear why so many folks are enamored of viking swords! Is it the many materials in the hilt? Viking culture? You like the pattern welding? Whats the draw? (Ha! see what I did there?! "Draw"?) :lol: |
It's not a mass combat weapon, basically.
The mass combat weapon of the Viking era was the spear, with short melee weapons being the sax and the axe. Swords are much rarer and more complex to make, and correspondingly less common. In the literature they turn up mostly for skirmishing, and in the hands of individual heroes and other such notable characters. The whole myth around a pattern-welded sword is about how it enhances the ability of an individual.
Even in battles, most of our accounts of specific sword use are one on one challenges/duels.
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Harry Marinakis
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 4:15 am Post subject: |
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I despite sabers and katzbalgers, and I despise them so much that I cannot even bring myself to post photos of them.
Sabers seem so ridiculous, why waste good steel by having only one cutting edge? The first katzbalger that I ever saw was a Deepeka and it was so hideous that I can't get that vision out of my mind when I hear about or see another one.
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Foong Chen Hong
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 5:51 am Post subject: |
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I dislike Rapiers and Katanas, I prefer sword that can cut and thrust at same time. For Katana, it is too fragile for my taste.
I prefer the swords and 13-15 centuries polearms.
Descanse En Paz
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 7:24 am Post subject: |
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I think nearly everyone here has experienced disliking a type of sword initially, only to later change their minds after coming to understand the culture and context from which it came. Personally I used to dislike rapiers, katzbalgers, messers, and tulwars, to name a few. I still can't say that any of these are my favourate type of sword, but I do like them. All this said, I'm still not a fan of smallswords or spadroons (though I can see why others like them), and I have yet to see an example of an Oakeshott type XI or XVII which tickles my fancy. I'd be interested to hear any fans of these types tell me what it is that attracts them to these swords.
Éirinn go Brách
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Christopher Treichel
Location: Metro D.C. Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 7:36 am Post subject: |
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To rebut the dislike of smallswords I give you a Ring Hilt Small Sword. Length of blade is about 30 inches... because that is all you need. Weight right about one pound. Wear it all day, fence for hours and did I mention its fast. You can dance circles around just about anything and last but not least its elegant as all hell and who doesn't want a martial art that is mathematically and aesthetically precise.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 8:59 am Post subject: |
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The small sword is alright as far as they go. The weight seems nice and I'm sure they're convenient as a civilian side-arm. Not sure who you're going to dance circles around since many other swords, like long swords and rapiers can strike incredibly quickly and badly outreach it. To my eye, it still lacks the beauty of a rapier, and the reach.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Harry Marinakis wrote: |
Sabers seem so ridiculous, why waste good steel by having only one cutting edge? The first katzbalger that I ever saw was a Deepeka and it was so hideous that I can't get that vision out of my mind when I hear about or see another one. |
I'll tackle sabers. Okay, maybe not sabers, but cutlasses and early hangers. Cutlasses and hangers are cool because they're pirate swords. True, rapiers, small swords and probably several other swords I have forgotten are also pirate swords, but cutlasses and hangers are the quintessential pirates of the Caribbean swords. Besides, curved bladed weapons- and I realize not all hangers are curved- really do cut more effectively than double-edged blades. There's something to be said for a good curved blade; although they lack some of the versatility of their two-edged counterparts.
If you don't mind hangers and cutlasses, then I suppose I have just wasted my time. ;-)
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J. Nicolaysen
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 9:40 am Post subject: |
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This was an interesting video I found of a smallsword vs. a rapier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phyPMOYXOCM
Some people here may know the participants, but I don't. Looked like a good basic intro to the different types of sword by good practitioners.
| Quote: | | I agree with Chris on the cinquedeas, though I do think that similar blades, perhaps a bit longer, can look good with a sword hilt. For example the sword of Cesare Borgia. |
I never liked Cinquedas either, but I have to say that Borgia looks pretty nice. It balanced out that fat stubby look I can't stand.
Roger, isn't the point of the sica that it really was Un-Roman? I like the Dacian blades, and the supposed sneakiness of the Sica.
I do like Katzbalgers, and Harry I hope to have one next year that even you might like. I really love this one too: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30123 Also, Nathan had quite the variety of types on myArmoury FB last week, pretty amazing.
Still haven't found the rapier that can change my mind. I do admire the work of A&A and E.B. Erickson and Jesse Belsky and certain other makers, but it is a technical admiration of their skills, still not something I would buy or want to learn how to use.
Last edited by J. Nicolaysen on Wed 15 Oct, 2014 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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T. Kew
Location: London, UK Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| J. Nicolaysen wrote: | This was an interesting video I found of a smallsword vs. a rapier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phyPMOYXOCM
Some people here may know the participants, but I don't. Looked like a good basic intro to the different types of sword by good practitioners. |
While interesting, that's not a smallsword - that's a basket hilted cut and thrust blade, often called a broadsword or similar. The smallsword is lighter, shorter, and specialised purely for the thrust.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Well, I like almost all weapons but I do like some more than others and some leave me cold but I don't actively " hate Any ", except maybe badly designed fantasy weapons that make no sense or are butt ugly, and even more so if they are being marketed as being of any practical use.
There are some swords I may have found interesting a few decades ago, but lost any great interest in them, like the Katana, and some swords like the Small Sword and most 19th century Sabres I never got interested in, but might in the future.
Mostly I've liked Dark Ages to early Renaissance swords but I have dipped my toe in the Rapier pool by getting an A&A Dresden rapier that is really an arming sword with a complex hilt, and I also purchased a Del Tin Bastard sword with a complex hilt.
I haven't really warmed to the later types of rapiers that can't cut at all.
I also got curious and tempted by a Lutel reproduction of a shell guard Dussack: Even with these that I have less interest in my curiosity about handling and the generally nice aesthetics tempted me to get a few complex guard swords.
Swords that I like but haven't liked enough to get are the Schiavona and the Katzbalger for example but mostly because one can't buy everything and not go broke.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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J. Nicolaysen
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | While interesting, that's not a smallsword - that's a basket hilted cut and thrust blade, often called a broadsword or similar. The smallsword is lighter, shorter, and specialised purely for the thrust. |
Yes of course, sorry for the mistake. I looked up short sword, not a smallsword. I blame my rugrats that I am supposed to be babysitting for the mental confusion.
By all means please show a good video or example of a good smallsword.
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | The small sword is alright as far as they go. The weight seems nice and I'm sure they're convenient as a civilian side-arm. Not sure who you're going to dance circles around since many other swords, like long swords and rapiers can strike incredibly quickly and badly outreach it. To my eye, it still lacks the beauty of a rapier, and the reach. |
Look to McBane and smallsword vs baskethilt broadsword. Again, history and context need to be considered when comparing one century with another.
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Spadroons and lighter broadswords evolving along with smallswords vary greatly in blade worth for cutting or thrusting. Some of the French spadroon de la Anglaise are perfectly useless aside from a hilt on a stick. For instance there is a youtube video by Matt Easton describing spadroons and uses an epee like French job to quantify all spadroons. That is a bit ridiculous. Truly that can be a case of misconceptions regarding many sword types. The variations of western swords between the 17th and 20th century is immense when compared to earlier centuries but there is a tendency to narrow the field across history and cultures to long or short, skinny or wide, curved or straight.
I still tend to window shop reproductions across all types and history but more or less disregard period swords outside of half a century of western expansion of the 18th and 19th century. So, I could easily say I am not fond of a great many swords while still appreciating them.
What is the best vs worst is not unlike so many discussions of cut vs thrust, western vs eastern, curved vs straight.
Cheers
GC
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Christopher Treichel
Location: Metro D.C. Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 268
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Christopher Treichel
Location: Metro D.C. Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like most European swords after about 1850... Once the gun really appears on the scene strange things happen to the sword like some pipebacks and flimsy little sabers.
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Harry Marinakis
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: | | I have yet to see an example of an Oakeshott type XI or XVII which tickles my fancy. I'd be interested to hear any fans of these types tell me what it is that attracts them to these swords. |
The Albion RItter has a elegant descendant of the brazil nut pommel - a tri-lobed cocked hat pommel. The sword is a bit blade heavy and it makes you want to go out and hack at something.
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This is a standard topic