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Henry R. Gower




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: De Bohun sword and shield         Reply with quote

Interesting. The colours used on the tomb effigies of Henry II, Eleanor of Aquitaine and Richard I at Fontevraud Abbey
appear to me to be the same/similar. Rich blues, ochres, white, gold, etc. Much of the colours appear to have survived the centuries.
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm sure Toby supplied excellent source material. The scabbard throat reminds me of the example on the Naumburg founder statue of Count Dietmar von Selbold. Is this a second example of the Oakeshott Type P pommel?
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_oakeshott3.html#pommelP


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Josh Davis
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow!! Just wow Tod!! Way to raise the bar yet again Wink It is always nice to see well done top notch stuff especially so vibrant.

Very impressive,

-Josh
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FWIW Christies attempted this year to auction off a sword with the de Bohun arms on the pommel. There seems to have been quite a fantastic story cooked up around it to raise the price!

Quote:
AN EXTREMELY RARE LATE MEDIEVAL BROADSWORD WITH EARLIER VIKING BLADE AND BEARING THE ARMS OF THE DE BOHUN FAMILY, EARLS OF HEREFORD AND ESSEX
THE BLADE MID-11th CENTURY, THE GUARD AND POMMEL 13th/14th CENTURY

With tapering double-edged fullered blade, iron cross-guard slightly swelled at each tip, short tang, and flattened iron wheel pommel inlaid with a copper shield on each side bearing the de Bohun coat of arms, each shield retaining traces of original gilding and enamelled inlay

27 7/8 in. (70.7cm.) blade

A runic inscription is clearly visible within one fuller

The blade has been slightly shortened and reprofiled to a tapering point, the original Viking profile ending with a rounded point. The fuller on each side has been partially filled towards the tip by molten iron to shorten the groove in proportion to the tapering tip.

The 1319 Will of Sir Humphrey De Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford and Essex (1276-1322), held in the Public Records Office, makes specific mention of four swords in the inventory of personal property of the Earl:

"iiij. Espeies. Lun des armes le dit Counte, lantre de Saint George et le tierce Sarziney, le quarte de Guerre”

A translation from old French is “Four swords, one with arms of said earl, the second of Saint George, and the third of ‘Sarziney’, the fourth of war”. It is the first mentioned of these four swords that is of present interest.






http://www.christies.com/presscenter/pdf/2014...dinary.pdf
Quote:
Leading the sale is an extremely rare LATE MEDIEVAL BROADSWORD with earlier Viking blade and bearing the arms of the De Bohun family (estimate: £80,000 – 120,000, illustrated left). The sword‟s illustrious story begins in the 11th century where it was possibly captured at the Battle of Hastings by Humphrey De Bohun and later remounted to become a family sword. Several generations later Sir Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford and Essex, fought in the Battle of Bannockburn where he witnessed his young nephew Henry de Bohun fall victim to King Robert‟s axe, and joined the retreat after it became clear on the second day of fighting that victory belonged to the Scots. He was taken prisoner at Bothwell Castle and eventually ransomed for the safe return of King Robert‟s queen, Elizabeth, his daughter Marjorie Bruce, two bishops and other prominent Scots captives. This sword, whilst not being a war sword in its present form, would have been used as a clear badge of identity with its gold and enamelled coat of arms on the pommel and eminently more practical as a side arm around camp when not mounted and armed for battle and appears to be the first of four swords mentioned in Sir Humphrey‟s will of 1319.



It failed to sell.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-29031812

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Ian Hutchison




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2014 9:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Hargis wrote:
Ian Hutchinson said:
Quote:
Exactly, thank you. People seem to think the medieval world was entirely drab and 'mud-coloured' but in fact, those who could afford it, preferred a variety of colors.
Really? Who here said "the medieval world was entirely drab and mud-coloured'?



I was not referring to any comments here, rather I was replying to Julian in regards to the general sentiment he mentioned:
Quote:
Beautiful work....the perfect antidote to the modern view that 'historical' means 'mud-coloured', which seems to suit the modern aesthetic but bears no relation to anything other than the faded, tarnished and oxidised remains we have sitting in museums...

If you were a knight, you would be surrounded by colour, and it would have been bright and vivid, just like this.....

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Wed 12 Nov, 2014 6:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo,

These pieces are exquisite. I have some concerns regarding your assertion that shields from this period were heavily curved.

A majority of the extant 14th century shields examined in Jan Kohlmorgen's Der Mittelalterliche Reiterschild are actually quite flat, and show no signs of warping over the centuries (much of the paint, gesso and plaster work, not to mention the parchment facings, would have diminished or ruined features if that were the case). The average size of surviving knightly shields, particularly in side-to-side dimensions, are important to consider not only for aesthetic but functional purposes. S-to-S measurements on Kohlmorgen's shields average not much more than 50cm, with the possibility of a 3-4cm curvature from center to edge on some few examples, such as the Raron oder Weingarten-Schild, which has a thick, complex carving on the face that cannot possibly have been warped with age. Another point concerns the angles of the suspension for guiges and endarmes - usually quite horizontal - which suggest that in order to use the shields effectively the arm would have to be held closely against the surface in an area that the forearm barely fit in. A heavily curved shield would make this next to impossible.

My assumption has always been that effigial depictions show the shields in slightly greater curvature for the sculptor's sake. If a sculptor were to make the shields sit flat, not only would the aesthetics be a bit more sloppy, but it would also create more fragile stone work that necessitated removing more stone from the inside of the shield rather than the outside, which would indeed be perilous work on such a thin, wide slab of stone. As far as illustrations are concerned, shields are often depicted from the side and have highly curved features. This seems apparent as a way to be able to depict some fraction of the wielder's heraldry, which was a common device used by illustrators to point out who was who in their miniature worlds.

One could argue for the idea that continental and English shields were shaped differently, and without any fair number of surviving English shields it's hard to say... The issue there is that even continental effigies from the era, such as that of Count Dietmar von Selbold linked above, reflect a tendency to depict elongated, highly curved shields that stand in stark contrast to the shapes, sizes and curvature of all of the surviving shields from the early 14th century. In fact, they tend to look anachronistic, reflecting proportions more aligned with the mid-13th century, which has also provided us with a number of extent shields to confirm this. That elements of continental effigies were anachronistic is only too clear to those who look at them often, and in the case of the shields I think this remains valid.

In any case, It is clear that nearly a dozen original shields from this era (that I know of and which are among all of those published) are quite flat, with none remaining that exhibit high levels of curvature like various artistic depictions suggest. It's not necessarily true that my assumption remedies the issue, but I'd certainly want to rely on the information accumulated about the various existing shields rather than just effigies and illustrations. (EDIT: It's also important to keep in mind that a great deal of the contemporary - ala early 14th century - art and effigies do depict smaller, flatter shields that reflect the nature of the extant pieces, as well. Hard to ignore.)

-Gregory


Last edited by Gregory J. Liebau on Wed 12 Nov, 2014 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Wed 12 Nov, 2014 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marvellous stuff Leo!

I'm especially keen on the cloth grip...so many historical examples yet so few dare to tackle a reproduction.

Regarding the plain looks of modern scabbards compared to the bright and vivid colours that seemed common in the mediaeval era - there is no denying that the modern scabbards mostly lean towards the austere (plain colours, the most extravagant will feature a contrasting belt but that's it)...so very few examples of painted leather around.

To match the above comments: absolutely love it, would likely not dare to wear it Happy (I do not wear any of my swords anyway so there you have it).
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Nov, 2014 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you again guys, I really appreciate the compliments and as I am sure Josh knows, it is always easier to make a piece really stand out when it is heavily funded. making a piece has a certain cost allocated to it, but high levels of decoration usually add far more than the base line price.

Gregory J.Liebau wrote
Quote:
These pieces are exquisite. I have some concerns regarding your assertion that shields from this period were heavily curved.
and then went on to supply a wealth of information - thank you.

I must confess that my personal belief was that they were heavily curved and in this case, it was certainly the route that Toby wanted taken; though I of course can't speak for him about his sources or reasoning. I do have to assume though that he is well founded in this belief!

As regards the harnessing, I wish I had could find a picture of the back. My computer died at about the time these were going through and that caused some recovery issues. I will ask Toby if he has one he can lay his hands on. We worked on the harnessing for a while to make it work both for foot and horse combat and this arrangement was developed from manuscript sources and from Toby's own experience of fighting.

Tod

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