Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Pronunciation Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject: Pronunciation         Reply with quote

I have found conflicting information about pronunciation of many arms & armour terms. Here are two that are especially vexing:

Sallet
Burgonet

I used to pronounce these Sa-láy and Bur-zho-nét (I've just recently seen the latter also described as Bur-zho-náy), but my giant Webster's unabridged dictionary records the pronunciations as Sá-leht and Burg-oh-nét. This makes sense because the Spanish word for Sallet is Celata, a bit closer to the dictionary's pronunciation of Sallet. Since the Burgonet takes its name from Burgundy, that also seems like a point for Mr. Webster.

I suspect that there are simply anglicized and non-anglicized pronunciations, but I'd like to know which pronunciations are standard in academic arms & armour study. Anybody?

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you're in England or using English forms of pronunciation, you can follow the long-standing tradition of Anglicizing every word. In this case you’d use a hard “t” sound with these things: like the word “Inter-net”. If you use a pronunciation closer to the word’s origin, you’d use the form sounding as though it ends with a “nay” sound. Personally, I say “Bur-zho-náy” and “Sa-láy”. Others do not. Both are used.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Nathan. Tomayto, tomahto....
Good to know.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Andrew Fox




Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 10:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Sallet" is an anglicization of the French "sallade" or Italian "celata", so it is properly pronounced like it looks. I wasn't sure about burgonet, but a quick trip to the American Heritage College Dictionary reveals that "burgonet" is yet another English phoneticization of a French word, this time from "bourguignotte", so it too is pronounced with the final "t". Since both French words end with a hard constonant, then it follows that their English versions probably should too. As Nathan points out, they're both commonly used regardless of what's "correct" so it's a matter of personal preference.
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Andrew!
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
David R. Glier





Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 11:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Indeed. Also gortet and armet, along with dozens of other armor bits. I decided early on that I was an english-speaker, my ancestors anglicized them, so by damme I'd anglacize them! Razz But yes, the english/french pronunciation argument is very common.
View user's profile Send private message
Andrew Fox




Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I didn't think about armet--I've always for pronounced it "ar-may", but you inspired me to dig into our copy of the OED (compact version, complete with magnifying glass in a little drawer), which says that armet is from Old French "armette", so there's that hard T again. I think "ar-may" sounds better than "ar-met" though. Wink
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This goes to show that just because people use different forms of pronunciation, it doesn't make them correct. I had better change the way I say many of these words! I have a mishmash of pronunciations, myself. Time to clean it up.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Scott H.




Location: Illinois
Joined: 10 May 2004

Posts: 94

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 2:08 pm    Post subject: pronuciation         Reply with quote

Yeah Nathan, you're such a gutter-mouth. Razz

(joking)
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Posts: 812

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I'm glad I read these before I corrected someone's pronunciation. I pronounce a couple of those correctly, but mostly through luck (or laziness, if we want to be honest), and apparently not through any actual knowledge, it would seem.

Now, if only I had actually read the dictionary (as I have often been accused of doing), I would have known better.

-Grey

P.S. If you are considering readin the dictionary, I advise against it. The thesaurus is a much livelier read, and, I find, more usefully on a dailly basis.

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian W. Rainey was nice enough to send this to me after a brief email discussion about it:

Quote:
"In my experience I have found that using the local dialect/translation is always beneficial. There is a clear translation for most armour terminology in a series of books titled Glossarium Armorum (8 or 9 volumes, paperback) that is most helpful when discussing armour-related topics with non-English speaking individuals.

When in doubt, I always revert to use the English terminology. These pronunciations should be used especially when dealing with British and American museums."


He told me I didn't need to credit him, so I hope he doesn't mind me doing so. The info is so good I felt I needed to. Thank you, Brian.

Despite all these forms being popular, it's very nice to know what is actually correct. I'm personally always glad to have my own stupid assumptions corrected. It is particularly nice to contrast with the original French terms: something I can't believe I never actually did.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Having French as my first language does influence the way I pronounce some of these terms although when thinking in English I tend to Anglisize my pronounciation even when the word is of French origing. Sometimes it just means that I get it wrong in both languages ......... LOL. Very confusing at times.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan, interesting that Brian should point that out. A friend recently visited the Wallace and because he had written in advance got the "back room tour". He said that while he pronounced the helmet "Burgonay" the curator said "Burgonette"... and pointed out the different pronunciation to him in a fairly pointed way.

We silly Yanks, saying things the way we THINK the French OUGHT to say them, LOL!

Oh, and Jean, that reminds me of a college class I took in Mexican History... some of the students asked if they could write the midterm in Spanish, the professor said sure... and when he returned the corrected tests, he said "Congratulations! You are my first class that is illiterate in two languages!"

Cheers,

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
James Aldrich




Location: Green Bay WI
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 5:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know whether it extends to the British, but we U.S. types foster the affectation of inappropriately "Frenchifying" words. An example on which I have had many a fruitless discussion is "gorget." Among re-enactors [who have the most occasions to use the word] it is usually pronounced "gor-zhay'." A trip to the OED will demonstrate the error of this usage. It's not merely a matter of convention; the etymology of the word supports the proper pronunciation.

You can always tell a re-enactor, but you can't tell him much.

JSA
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
He said that while he pronounced the helmet "Burgonay" the curator said "Burgonette"


Is that with a hard "g" as in burger or a soft "g", pronounced "zh"?

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James;

I could be wrong here but trying to sound it out phonetically: Gor- Zhay doesn't sound like a French approximation of the word to me. I see a lot of the letter Z in these attempts and the sound in French would not sound as if there was a Z in it.

Trying to explain this with type written words is sort of frustrating as it is difficult to convey the right sound on this written medium.

There are some conventions to do this used by linguist that I don't know so I will try to explain how, I , as a French speaker would pronounce it. (Not necesseraly the way a French expert in armour might.)

First GORGET comes from the word gorge which translates as throat: The "get" part is soft and the T is silent.

GOR-JAY is closer but not hard as in JAY-walking: So if you pronouce JAY like this you are doing it wrong.

If you are familiiar with the pronounciation of È: GOR- GÈ would be closer, what makes this difficult is that there is no sound in English that is an exact match to the sound in French.

Isn't this a problem similar to Japanese people who have difficulty with the R sound since it doesn't exist in their language and because they were not exposed to the sound while young have trouble not only in pronouncing word with R sounds in it but may even have problems perceiving it: A kind of selective deafness here.

Anyway, I hope this helps a bit and is not more confusing than useful...............LOL.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Gordon Frye wrote:
He said that while he pronounced the helmet "Burgonay" the curator said "Burgonette"


Is that with a hard "g" as in burger or a soft "g", pronounced "zh"?


Hard "G", as in Gordon, rather than the softie "G" of a Geordie... Eek!

Perhaps I should rephrase that... Big Grin

Hard "G" as in Burger, rather than soft "G" as in "zh". However, "Gorget" was hard first "G", soft second "G", with the "T" pronounced. English can be a darned awkward language, what? Especially when trying to pronounce French! Jean must have loads of fun with this stuff...

Cheers,

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Sean Flynt




Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,981

PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 8:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That helps a great deal, because it confirms the Webster's unabridged pronuciation key for the word. And if its pronunciation of Burgonet is correct, then I'm assuming that its pronunciation keys for the other arms & armour terms also are correct. Ahhhh, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow....
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon;

I agree with most of your explanations: The hard G and soft g is very well explained, but as a French speaker when speaking French I would consider the T at the end as silent, at least not hard T, but it does affect the way the E is pronounced.
If it didn't you would have Gorge or troath again as opposed to Gorget / Troath protector.

If you are pronoucing Gorget the GET the same as in FORGET than you are using an English way of pronouncing it.

Now as a French speaker using an English pronounciation of the word I might well pronouce the T at the end of Gorget.
(Basically respecting a long English tradition of pronouncing it WRONG! ..........LOL.)

Could be wrong, but this makes sense to me in every day French.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 9:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean;

Burgonet: I would pronouce this with the hard T as it is an English word as far as I can tell that corresponds to the French
Bourguignotte.

Now it would be nice if everything was nice and neet and that since Burgonet uses a hard T then Gorget or any other French word ending in T should also have a hard T. Sorry, but French is full of inconsistancies with exceptions to the rules and exceptions to the exceptions.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Pronunciation
Page 1 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum