[Gordon Frye]

Jean;

I think that the usual (well, for me at least) pronunciation for "Gorget" would be Hard "G" (as in Gordon) then SOFT "G" (as in George), rather than as in "Forget" which would be the second "G" hard as well. But heck, at this point it's probably whatever pronunciation works to get the point across!

As Sean said above "Tomaytoe, Tomahtoe" kinda deal.

And all right thinking people of course say "TomAY-toe"...

Cheers!

Gordon

[Gordon Frye]

[Sean Flynt]

Mr. Webster Weighs In:

His pronunciation would sound like this--Gaurjeht

It's not clear where the stress should be, but I had an archaeology prof who pronounced the word this way and stressed the first syllable.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Gordon;

Oh, my what a can of worms! My "Forget" example was for the ET part only the G would still be soft . As your explanation of first G hard second g soft was bang on.

In summary G(hard)org(soft)et (with the T silent). (French pronounciation.)

So my analogy is Forget using a soft G (Now again, in case this is getting confusing, this is for the English pronounciation if the T is hard.)

Nothing that wouldn't be easy to explain with sound in a phone call!

[Gordon Frye]

"EEEK!!!!" (They said in unison, as they all ran screaming from their computers, wishing to heck that they'd never strayed into this thread....) "Make the voices inside my head stop!!!"



Gordon

[Jean Thibodeau]

Gordon;

Is that a EEEEEEEEK with a hard or soft K .........LOL.

Sorry, I couldn't resits.

NOOOOOOOOOOO.................MAKE IT STOP!

[Tim Plourd]

Hello everyone. Salu Jean. :-) this is my first post to this site, I have spent a great deal of time reading the posts here and looking at odds and ends on the site but this is the first time I have come out from under my rock. To me it always feals a little odd, sorta like butting into a conversation that you weren't necessarily invited into. This topic is one that is very near and dear to me however so I just can't keep my mouth shut.

Language and pronunciation, both contemporarily and historically come home to roost for me in that I am 1) a graduate student in Cultural Resource Management 2) the head armorsmith for the Camlann Medieval Village and 3) a speaker of my native language Ahnishnabemowin, and actually here I am more familiar with the way it was spoken in the 1800's than I am with the way it is spoken today.

A point that is often brought up in class like Anthropological Linguistics is to consider the writer of the source documentation you are considering. So in the case of consulting the OED the fact that it was written in the modern era is significant but also the point to wich they date a word is important and their source for dating is significant as well. A point I would stress with the OED is that it defines the term Latten to mean brass (or at least it would seem too). Following that line of reasoning one might infer that all the copper workers, say in the 14th C., did not work Latten. Something we know to be incorrect.

Another point to consider is, as mentioned, how things change not just through time but in different places at the same time. Innsbruck steel, for example, seems to have been a choice product for allot of years. A person might assert that it was valuable to the English in the late 16th C. because Shakespeare mentions "a sword of icebrook's temper" as being a nice thing in the play Othello. The hinge pin here is the use of the word "icebrook" and that it is an anglicized version of the word Innsbruck. Well, is it? opinions may very. The writers of the OED certainly have their's and thank goodness for them, but serious research begs other opinions as well.

Something I would like to interject here, indeed it is sortof my whole point, is on the specific French point. Now, I am in no way shape or form an expert on French. My father, however, didn't speak English until he was 6, only French and Inidan. Now he was born in 1922 and his mother, who he learned to speak from, was born in the 1870's. So my point here is that I am sure I could either entertain or thoroughly frustrate Jean here with my ancient and Indianized version of Quebecoi. Lets say, for the sake of argument (and my oppologies to Jean for the hypothetical) that I was the last person on Earth who actually spoke any French at all. People from all around would come to write down what I had to say. They would want to "document this loss of culture" in a way that would be holding out my buchery of the French language as the end all beat all example of Frenchness.

alright, so I promised you a point and I am going of like some Grade Student that has no social life ... ah, ya ... I GET OUT. :-) alright so two assertions 1) the French et or ette being pronounced differently. Not really, depends on the time. Vous et moi (you and me), for example might have been written "vous ette moi" in the 1700's. So the word "gorget" or "gorgette" might actually be the exact same word. Depends on who what when and where.

2) Is the term "gorget" (or any other, I am just picking on the one) French? Is it? Charles Ffoulkes in his book "The Armourer and his Craft", 1912 Methuen & Co. Ltd., records the term "gorget" as English and the term "colletin" as French. Now, before anyone else says it, yes ... Mr. Ffoulkes is the rotten dastard that is probably most significant in the proliferation of mistaken facts such as banded maille and the term cop in place of the term poleyn etc. That does not mean, however, that everything he wrote down was incorrect, nor am I arguing that it IS correct, just that there is a question. A question, by the by, that I do not have an answer too. I personally think that the term is French, it "feals" French to me. The fact is, however, that if I want to argue that the term IS French I could expect to be sidelined by a couple of really good arguments to the contrary and in the end all that would be left is my professional opinion ... or maybe the fact that I am also a re-inactor and can't be told much. ;-)

[Jean Thibodeau]

Tim;

Thanks for jumping in: As I am far from being an expert on the French language in the same way that the average English speaker is not an expert in English usage either, I was giving my impression on how a French speaker reading the word out loud when coming across it for the first time would say the word.

Now there might well be a "right" way to pronounce it that might surprise me as "not typical" of the usual way words are pronounced in French.

Now if Gorget is actually an English word that only sounds French and Colletin is the original French word for the object, then the English pronounciation should be the "right" one. But a French speaker would probably francisise the pronounciation of the word if unaware of it's English origing. All very confusing and not a cut and dry or right and wrong thing.

Just to add to the complexity: I just found another word for gorget in one of my French reference books: GORGERIN

Reference: ARMES ET ARMURES de Charlemagne à Louis XIV par Paul Martin, Conservateur du Musée historique de Strasbourg. Office di livre, Fribourg © 1967 pages 76 101 104 118 140 284 ( GORGERIN )

From the same book ( COLLETIN ) pages: 65 69 82 101 103 109 115 123 138 140 272

Page 65: Colletin de maille, le camail. ( Maille standard or Coiffe. )
Page 82: Colletin fixe. ( Sounds like a plate version. )

Well reading the various and very short mentions of the Colletin in this book there seems to be a vague distinction between it and a Gorget that is hard to say if both could be used interchangebly: It can be Maille or plate and sometimes large enough to take the place of most of a breastplate.

[Tim Plourd]

Thank you Jean.

Interesting sites. I shall look into the dates of the term "colletin". I would have though, just as a gut reaction, that Ffoulkes was looking at a Anglo-saxon adoption of a French word post 1066 and that "colletin" was a latter period French term. If the term Colletin, as your research might sugjest, is older than say the 14th C. or so then the two might be similar in age. although linguistics suggests that the more syllables a word has the younger it is ... it is thought that this is why "yes" and "no" tend to be single syllable words in many languages. So that suggests that "gorget" might be older.

Still, it is quite possible that these are terms that co-existed. As in knife and dagger, the two terms might have been interchangeable at certain points.

When looking at the term Colletin as it relates to maille, is there association with maile prior to the transitional era? ie Is there an account (or something like) of a Lord discussing the "colletin of his hauberk" in 1120? Or do your books comment one way or the other?

--Tim

[Jean Thibodeau]

Tim;

The references to Colletin in the book are very short and the author seems to assume that the reader is already familliar with the term. I must admit I haven't re-read this book attentively and completely in many years, so from memory I can't be sure if I missed anything important: I did look at all the pages relating to this word in the index at the end of the book.

( Only recently became more interested in plate armour and should re-read this book as I would get much more out of it now that my level of interest has increased. )

And, as I mentioned, it is described as made of maille in some of the captions.

The book does use artwork: Detailled funerary sclupture of knight in armour as sources to detail the evolution of armour as well as photographs of actual armour.

The Colletin seems to be related or identical to aventail or full coifs in origing and evolving into plate defenses and becoming at times a major piece of armour in itself supporting the shoulder defenses and breastplate. A plate defense used with a buff coat and substituting for a breast plate in it's later evolution. As least this is what I am getting from the texts assuming that I am understanding it right. This is a fairly scolarly book and the language seems to assume a lot of background knowledge.

Hope this helps : From the Nouveau Petit Larousse Illustré 1952 edition, COLLETIN: Pièce d'armure qui défendait le cou et les épaules. Translation: Armour that protect the neck and shoulders.
Sounds to me as this could be also a bishops mantel or the same or very similar to the gorget when made of plate.

Anyway this is as far as I can get you with my limited amount of knowledge.

[Tim Plourd]

Thanks again Jean.

I looked up Gourgerit in my copy of "Encyclopedie Medievale", Viollet-Le-Duc, thanks for that as well, its a new one on me. Interesting thing though, it says " Petit camail de mailles attache a la barbute ou au bacinet, qui courvrait le cou et atteignait a peine les epaules. On voit des la fin du Xille siecle le gourgerit porte avec la barbute dans les provinces meridionales de la France et en Italie."

If I am translating this correctly it would seem to indicate that the Gourgerit was a specific chain attachment to a specific helm type. Barbutes and Bacinets aren't realy that far apart in shape, atleast in this way.

I will attach a photo of one of my more munitions grade reconstructions of this type. As this is the first time I have tried this don't be surprised if I botch it somehow.

If you don't mind Jean could you help me with translating that definition. I get " a small camail of maille attached to a barbute or a bascinet ..." then it sorta looses me, something about the shoulders. That second sentence, is it saying that the barbute style of gourgerit was specific to certain provinces in France and Italy?

--Tim[img][/img]

[Jean Thibodeau]

Tim;

" Petit camail de mailles attache a la barbute ou au bacinet, qui courvrait le cou et atteignait a peine les epaules. On voit des la fin du Xille siecle le gourgerit porte avec la barbute dans les provinces meridionales de la France et en Italie."

Translation: " Small aventaille attached to a barbute or basinet that protected the neck and barely reached the shoulders. We see from the end of the XIII century the gourgerit ( Gorgerin : the spelling in my book. ) worn with the barbute in the southern provinces of France and Italy. "

So a short avantaile, although your attached picture seems to show an avantail that reaches the shoulders and down to the upper chest.

This may have been the original meaning and it may have become an alternate word to gorget or confused with it when it started to be applied as a name to plate armour protecting the same area.

The gorget may be have evolved independantly from the bevor and at some point these two different pieces became so similar as to be interchangeble in function and in meaning: I'm just guessing here!

[Tim Plourd]

Again Jean, thank you very much.

Ya, that particular piece was made for a pretty big fellow we employ at Camlann. The maille actually does just come to his shoulders.

I think that your idea about these particular terms developing is just as plausible as the next. So many times history is represented with a kind of certainty that we just don't have. Wich, I think, is the value of a forum such as this. I will remember your thoughts and maybe it will return at a point in my Graduate work where it has a greater relevance than just this list. I will, as a good acedimic, steal it. ;-) ahhh, I mean utilize your input to a greater end.

Joking aside, again, Merci

--Tim

[Jean Thibodeau]

Tim;

Your welcome and glad I was of some help.

Also welcome to this forum and I hope you will enjoy it as much as I do. ( Although I just welcome you in a totally un-official way being just another participant. )

I am sure that you can start your own topics based on your own interests and studies that will stimulate good conversations and that others will be happy to"jump" into.

[Gordon Frye]

Wow, amazing stuff one can learn here! French even... which makes enormous sense considering that most of the English words for armour are bastardized, er excuse me, "Anglicized" French.

Tim , welcome aboard, glad that you decided to post finally! I have to tell you that this Christmas my wife and I (and her sister and her husband) visited Camlann for the first time, for their "Yuletide Feast", and it was wonderful. I very much wish that the place had been actually open for business (Roger was kind enough to open the shops for us to poke around in them though, which was nice... and of course we DID spend money there, LOL!) but some day we'll make it back during the summer and enjoy the full fruits of the establishment. It looks very cool.

Thanks for the information, and for posting!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Tim Plourd]

Gordon,

Very glad to know that you made it out. Yes, please do come during the summer and look me up. I'll be behind the forge making as much noise as I possibly can so I shouldn't be too hard to find.

Hopefully, next year I will have a more historically correct forge in place. The last two years I have been using my nail makers forge, at least it is a coal forge but the crank handle and blower is a SCREAMING anachronism. We have plans in the works at the moment to build a period forge but at the moment we are casting about for a mason. So we shall have to see what transpires.

In any event I will still be doing my demos on armor and blackwork, Tinker has a booth right across from mine and aside from presenting his swords and knives gives two daily demos on fighting, albiet from the Liechtienhuer school of thought. The Seattle Knights are there also doing the jousting and they put on a realy good show.

Allright, I should stop the shameless promotional op.

--Tim

[Gordon Frye]

Thanks Tim, and nothing wrong with a little bit of shameless professional plugging, especially when you are specifically asked about it!

I do intend to look you up next time I'm up there, which ought to be sometime this summer at the latest. Thanks for the good info, makes it seem all that much more worthwhile. And good luck on finding a decent mason to make your forge! But having a decent set of bellows will no doubt make your life a whole lot easier, or at least a whole lot more authentic! Make you arm stronger, too, LOL!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Sean Flynt]

More grist for the mill:

According to my giant Webster's, Cabasset is pronounced "Ka beh say"

[Jean Thibodeau]

Sean;

Again just guessing but I would pronounce it as a french speaker just casually looking at the word: KA BAH SAY or KA BAS SAY or a sound somewhat between the two. ( Regional french accent at work here. ) Ka beh say might be valid also.

A bit like my name THIBODEAU I got into and out of the habit of pronouncing it slightly differently: As a kid I used to pronounce my name, TI BA DO when saying it fast. Years later I sort of got self conscious about it and pronounced it more as spelled, TI BO DO.

There is a variant way to spell my name which is THIBAUDEAU which matches the alternate pronounciation.

Anyway, this just to show that these things can be confusing to the point of my not being 100% sure how my own name should be pronounced! Actually both ways are valid as is the alternate spellings.

Oh, some people spell it THIBODEAULT the LT at the end being silent, and looking through the phone book I see a THIBIDEAU.

Well, maybe just adding to the confusion here ...... LOL.

[Gordon Frye]

Den o' course dere be da Louisiana spellin', "Thibodaux", right Fellahs? But day all be from 'Cadia anyways...
(Yeah, I'm 'bout to get my @$$ Whupped here, I know..., you're both welcome to say something nasty about my state in return, since it's probably true. )

Cheers!

Gordon