Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Still a messer? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2 
Author Message
Andrew Gill





Joined: 19 Feb 2015

Posts: 150

PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a small, very slightly curved, somewhat corroded messer in the Kelvingrove museum in Glasgow that is relevant to this thread. There are some photos of it in this thread :http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...w=previous (note: not the sabered arming sword also discussed in that thread). I think the blade was only around 70 cm long (I have better but still approximate dimensions for it written down somewhere - taken through glass with a tape measure, so the error of parallax is included free of charge). When I saw it about 5 years ago, it struck me how similar it was to those depicted in Talhoffer's manuscript, as shown earlier in the thread. It definitely had a nagel, and clearly had once had grip-scales rivetted onto the tang, though they are long gone now. The interesting thing about the blade was that instead of a clipped point it had something like a spear-point (i.e an almost symmetrical point sharpened on both sides), and even in the unsharpened portion of the back between the hilt and the false edge had bevels, so the blade had a sort of assymetric or mutilated diamond shape over its entire length.
View user's profile Send private message
T. Kew




Location: London, UK
Joined: 21 Apr 2012

Posts: 256

PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andrew Gill wrote:
There is a small, very slightly curved, somewhat corroded messer in the Kelvingrove museum in Glasgow that is relevant to this thread. There are some photos of it in this thread :http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...w=previous (note: not the sabered arming sword also discussed in that thread). I think the blade was only around 70 cm long (I have better but still approximate dimensions for it written down somewhere - taken through glass with a tape measure, so the error of parallax is included free of charge). When I saw it about 5 years ago, it struck me how similar it was to those depicted in Talhoffer's manuscript, as shown earlier in the thread. It definitely had a nagel, and clearly had once had grip-scales rivetted onto the tang, though they are long gone now. The interesting thing about the blade was that instead of a clipped point it had something like a spear-point (i.e an almost symmetrical point sharpened on both sides), and even in the unsharpened portion of the back between the hilt and the false edge had bevels, so the blade had a sort of assymetric or mutilated diamond shape over its entire length.


Do you have a catalogue number? I'm up at the Kelvingrove in a few weeks, and that's quite a nice little piece.

(I can see about inquiring about blade profile and measurements etc, but obviously no guarantees)
View user's profile Send private message
Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
Joined: 01 Jan 2011

Posts: 578

PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 8:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

People didn't use messer to clear woods because they had other tools much better suited to the purpose. Bill-hooks and axes, to name two. I am fairly confident in stating that messer were almost always intended as weapons and generally used for that purpose, although they could have occasional non-combat uses; slaughtering animals, perhaps.
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 335

PostPosted: Fri 20 Feb, 2015 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Moore wrote:
Mike Ruhala wrote:
An illumination from a 13th c. manuscript shows a normal beidana being held in luginslant and wielded with a buckler, having evidently just wounded the head of kneeling saint.


could you provide a source for that illumination? From what I've heard, Beidana only appeared in the 16th Century....


Sure! Had to look it up, apparently it's the martyrdom of St Peter.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-colle...arch/32830
View user's profile Send private message
Mark T




PostPosted: Sun 22 Feb, 2015 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Brudon wrote:
Also would like to ask what is the purpose behind the clip points, I think also shown on dussacks? It seems to be a deliberate limiter to penetration, maybe for sparring or competition fighting? Or was it just a shortcut to build a basic heavy spine and at least give it some sort of point ?


Hi Michael,

There's been some good modern research done on the effectiveness of clip points in the context of sabres and bowie knives.

In brief:
- They reduce weight at the tip, but still allow for an in-line point.
- The meeting of the convex with the concave edges allows for a finer - and therefore sharper - point than a dagger (or 'double-convex' point).
- The fine angle of the 'true' edge is backed up by the thicker 'false' edge, creating a larger, triangular wound channel.
- While a normal convex edge will work in a repelling motion, the concave edge can act in a pulling motion, which can be more efficient in both the cut and the retraction.
- The sharpened swedge / false edge allows for back-cutting techniques, which would not be as effective with a standard 'dagger'-shaped point.

If you want more information on this, good leads are:
- Master-at-Arms James A Keating's Bowie knife fighting DVDs: http://www.jamesakeating.com/, as well as the good overall introduction on his 'Legacy of Steel' DVDs, available from both Mr Keating and Paladin Press.
- Master Bladesmith Bill Bagwell's video commentary on Bowie knives. You can see part of this on the relevant Modern Knives DVD issue, available from Pete Kautz: http://alliancemartialarts.com/issue5.htm, as well as 'Bill Bagwell: Point and Back Cut' on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuZlPJBA61I
- Bill's 'Bowie's, Big Knives, and the Best of Battle Blades': http://myArmoury.com/books/item.1581601077.html has a good discussion of the features and benefits of this geometry
- Maestro Charles Selberg's YouTube video response to my questions about these issues, 'Sabre Fencing: The History and Use of the Back Cut or False-Edge Cut in Sabre Fencing': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw-yNdbXE8Q

In short: sharpened clip-points existed for a reason: they worked!

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Brudon




Location: South Pacific
Joined: 21 Dec 2013

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sun 22 Feb, 2015 8:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the information, very interesting!
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Kren




Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Joined: 04 Nov 2015

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jan, 2020 4:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Here are two messers with softer tapers, but notice the length.

See this old thread for details and good info.


Hi, do you perhaps have any more information on the first messer you posted? I'm interested in its dimensions...
Thanks
Luka

https://www.facebook.com/lusthallworkshop/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JG Elmslie
Industry Professional



Location: Scotland
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 272

PostPosted: Sun 19 Jan, 2020 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Here are two messers with softer tapers, but notice the length.

See this old thread for details and good info.


I know its rather late now, but just be aware that the second of those two messers is possibly a fake.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michael P. Smith




Location: Muncie, Indiana
Joined: 11 Jul 2018
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Thu 30 Jan, 2020 5:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I’m surprised that no one has mentioned the English Wakefield-type hangers. They are “messer-like” but sport a tip better suited to thrusting and a sword-like grip construction.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Still a messer?
Page 2 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum