Posts: 148 Location: United States
Mon 29 Jun, 2015 3:26 pm
| William P wrote: |
| Dan Howard wrote: | | Depends on the type of cloth. 30 layers of the linen used to make quality tablecloths would be completely proof against longbows if they were quilted like the above kote. |
are we sure that said arm guards dont contain plastic inserts or other materials? i think some modern kendo armour does incorperate plastic |
I did kendo as an undergraduate, only the do (breastplate) incorporates plastic. The kote (gauntlets), men (helmet), and tare (faulds) are just heavily quilted fabric. They're extremely rigid and provide great protection, of course I was never hit with anything besides the hollow rattan shinai. The barred face-mask of the men is usually metal. The gi itself is made of a thick cotton construction and provides padding.
Posts: 60 Location: Ballarat, Australia
Mon 29 Jun, 2015 4:38 pm
Okay...just to check I am getting this right....
We have no idea what a Linothorax (for sake of convention) is made of possibly leather, linen or a quilted material or a combination of the above? We just lack evidence of the precise construction?
I would wonder how one made of rabbit skin glue last over time...might be worth a look.
Posts: 1,456 Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Mon 29 Jun, 2015 7:29 pm
| Roderick Stacey wrote: |
Okay...just to check I am getting this right....
We have no idea what a Linothorax (for sake of convention) is made of possibly leather, linen or a quilted material or a combination of the above? We just lack evidence of the precise construction?
I would wonder how one made of rabbit skin glue last over time...might be worth a look. |
*Strictly* speaking, "linothorax" is only used as a Greek *adjective*, and only twice in surviving literature. Better just to say "linen armor" if you mean linen armor, which definitely existed but does not seem to have been a Greek thing during the Classical era. If you are discussing what you can *see* in all those Classical Greek vase paintings and other depictions, better to say "tube and yoke" cuirass, cuz that is certainly what it is! And many of us think that what we are usually seeing is a leather armor called the spolas.
There are clear references to NON-Greeks using linen armor, but never a hint of glue. There are clear references to Greek leather armor. There is no suggestion of a combination of materials. And yes, we are still lacking evidence for many details, notably thickness!
People have speculated and experimented with all manner of glues, but to me that seems pretty pointless. There's just no reason in the evidence to try it, and no reason to glue it rather than quilting it.
Matthew
Posts: 60 Location: Ballarat, Australia
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 3:16 am
I guess that there are no lines to indicate any form of quilting on the Vases like in later depictions of quilted armour (mack bible for example)? So is there actual evidence or is this conjectural? I have read some evidence like Vergona infer, leather but that is not a definitive answer.
"Spolas de thorax ek dermatos, kata tous omous ephaptomenos, hos Xenophon ephe 'kai spolas anti thorakos'"
"The spolas is a thorax of leather, which hangs from the shoulders, so that Xenophon says 'and the spolas instead of the thorax.'"
"Spolas: khitoniskos bathus skutinos, ho bursinos thorax"
"Spolas: thick leathern little chiton, the leathern thorax"
So we have these sources and the linen armoured argives reference?
Posts: 1,523 Location: Sydney, Australia
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 4:16 am
one thing comes to mind though is
regarding the spolas being of leather, didnt we previously establish that leather wasnt as effective or as cheap as textile armour in previous threads? and that as armour it doesnt really offer trhat much protection?
Posts: 95 Location: montpellier
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 4:42 am
| William P wrote: |
one thing comes to mind though is
regarding the spolas being of leather, didnt we previously establish that leather wasnt as effective or as cheap as textile armour in previous threads? and that as armour it doesnt really offer trhat much protection? |
leather is cheap if you have many wild beast near. when all the wild beast is killed i think its cheaper to make textile.
Hardened leather/hide is more resistant to wide blade arrows than unquilted textile pound to pound.
https://www.academia.edu/5520314/Arrows_Against_Linen_and_Leather_Armour
Posts: 507
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 5:42 am
In Northwestern Europe, Ancient Greece has completely different geographical features than North Western Euroe, for one, it is more rocky per general mile, meaning in harder to set vast fields of crops there and there are less trees. There are many references in the Illiad and the Odyssey to cattle ranching and religious ritual involving cattle sacrifice that indicates that ranching was very common part of live of Ancient Greek culture.
Posts: 1,456 Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 6:14 am
| Roderick Stacey wrote: |
| I guess that there are no lines to indicate any form of quilting on the Vases like in later depictions of quilted armour (mack bible for example)? So is there actual evidence or is this conjectural? |
As you get to the late 5th and into the 4th centuries BC, you see more depictions of the tube-and-yoke cuirass that have vertical lines, etc. Especially from Italy (which has a lot more nice painted frescoes than Greece does). But again, we don't know if those are quilting, decoration, or what.
And then we get this style of, um, something, which is clearly heavier than the tunic worn underneath, but still flexible (doesn't need pteruges), and *might* be covered with zigzag quilting.
[ Linked Image ]
I think that's quilted linen. Probably. Maybe. They even make the darn thing as a kilt, so it's not just a heavy tunic made for staying warm!
[ Linked Image ]
| Quote: |
"Spolas de thorax ek dermatos, kata tous omous ephaptomenos, hos Xenophon ephe 'kai spolas anti thorakos'"
"The spolas is a thorax of leather, which hangs from the shoulders, so that Xenophon says 'and the spolas instead of the thorax.'"
"Spolas: khitoniskos bathus skutinos, ho bursinos thorax"
"Spolas: thick leathern little chiton, the leathern thorax"
So we have these sources and the linen armoured argives reference? |
Plus a number of references to non-Greeks in linen armor, such as Persians and Libyans.
| William P wrote: |
one thing comes to mind though is
regarding the spolas being of leather, didnt we previously establish that leather wasnt as effective or as cheap as textile armour in previous threads? and that as armour it doesnt really offer trhat much protection? |
Athens had a booming leather industry, but linen apparently was imported to Greece and not cheap. There is a quote from Pausanias that linen armor was better for hunting than for war, since it wouldn't stop a hard blow from a weapon. But there's no real way to tell more than that about comparative effectiveness of leather vs. linen until we can find out more about what *kind* of leather or linen, how thick, etc. I would start with the assumption that neither would be as good as an equal weight of bronze. BUT, we can't assume that this was their main concern!
Matthew
Posts: 496 Location: Poland
Tue 30 Jun, 2015 7:00 am
| William P wrote: |
might it also perhaps be prudent to note the fact also that glued armour might be at severe risk of falling apart in the fasce of the weather as was discussed in another thread where i asked about the differences between glued and quilted textile armour |
Well, if I recall correctly, most reconstructions of early medieval shields are made using glue though.
In case of later shields there's direct evidence of use of glue too (or am I mistaken?).
One may argue that shield is easier to cover from the elements, but I think it depends.
Posts: 3,636 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Wed 08 Jul, 2015 3:18 am
Glue has been used to make layered leather armour. There are surviving examples from northern Russia and northern America. Note that they all come from near the Arctic where the humidity is very low and and rainfall is also very low. Glued armour would be slower to deteriorate in this environment.
You can't use illustrations to determine whether something has been quilted or not. Just because one artist chose to show quilting doesn't mean that they all did. In addition, a lot of armour had a cover of something fairly expensive (silk, fine leather, fustian, velvet, etc) over the top. The quilting may have been concealed by this cover.
Posts: 2,698 Location: Indonesia
Thu 23 Jul, 2015 6:54 am
| Pieter B. wrote: |
When, and why did the average footsoldier stop wearing quilted textile armor?
Looking at Dolnsteins and Urs Graf's drawings together with woodcuts depicting Landsknecht soldiers it seems like they are not wearing any armor besides plate armor after 1500-1520.
Did it get replaced by something better or cheaper? Did the threat it was primarily designed for disappearing from the battlefield? Or was textile armor not suitable for the type of warfare they fought or the cultural context within which they lived? |
One possibly relevant factor is that ordinary civilian clothing seems to have become heavier and more padded in the 16th century. This might have made them more suitable for use as under-armour padding without the need for a more specific arming undergarment. As for heavy standalone textile armour, we might not be seeing quite as much of it in Western Europe but long quilted kaftans seem to have been very, very popular in the 16th and 17th centuries in Eastern Europe, and didn't disappear until Peter the Great completely reorganised the Russian army along Western European lines in the 18th century.
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