[T. Brandt]

Yeah, 300 is as historically accurate as the Godzilla movies, for the most part.

[Matt J]

Firstly, every nation is given the same basic things: Magic (based on religion), Steel Equipment (based on their equipment), and something more abstract. Tactics, strategies, abilities. Each of these has a plethora. Now, the Man at arms, and other european soldiers that we have been talking about, are only a part of a greater whole. This greater whole is their "fake" nation. Fake, because they are a nation within a nation. They have been taken over by "the empire," which is a much larger nation. These people retain their ancestry (christianity), but belong to another nation. The details are not important, what is important is to understand that, ideally, we will have people from all throughout history put on an equal playing field, and all within the same time period. Because magic, equalizing technology, and their combat strategies, plus the ability to control how this specific history works, I will attempt to make a world that feels real.

It is important to note, that these are nations of Man. Like, houses, or factions. Yes, they are large and powerful, but they are very divided within themselves as well. On top of this, there are Elves and Dwarves, and Orcs which are not really a whole entity, but many scattered ones.

There are a lot of fantasy factors that can be used very easily to prevent the total extinction of a lot of these people. But, there are still plenty of extinct nations (Egyptians, Vikings, and "wood elves").

You're right, it could be a matter of numbers. The spartans could simply outnumber the knights. But, this is not a war game, it is a roleplaying game. Meaning that 5 Spartans = 1 Knight is not an equation that works. What motivation does the player have to play as a Spartan? Let me point out right now, that there are no classes in this game. There are trainers, archetypal classes such as Paladin, Man-At-Arms (used to be Knight), Cleric, Shaman, etc, etc. (Shaman, referring to Viking shamanism). These archetypal classes can easily be mimiced, but charcter creation is free combinations of everything in between.

You have helped me so much, Pieter (also shout out to all of the other people). I read your reply this morning, but couldn't respond because I was called into work. As a messenger that delivers all day long, I was able to solve through a lot of problems that I didn't realize I had created, because of you ^^

I was getting horribly afraid that plate would prove to be too powerful. Plate would kind of be the goal for anyone with money... and who wanted to have every edge possible. I don't like exploitative mechanics like that. But, I wasn't sure what to do except make plate armor a pain, or involve a lot of attribute investment (limited resource). Actually, the perfect answer is firearms. Or crossbows, depending on which one suits the power level I need.

Firearms (or crossbows), very, very early ones, will serve this purpose. If I add them into the game, with the mechanics of being 1 shot kills, if you hit, and then requiring a long down time period for reloading, etc. This allows anyone, even the worst player, to simply point and kill someone. A veteran clad in full plate, or another noob, it won't matter. As long as your (inaccurate?) bullet hit its mark, you will most likely be victorious. Of course, this only allows you to kill 1 person. Imagine a Call of Duty type set up. Free for all death match. Allowing someone the option to a weapon that is an insta-kill, and then you are required to fall back on your sword (disadvantage), you only get 1 easy kill before you will surely die, especially if you are bad.

But, the idea that there are noobs out there that may use this weapon, will prevent players from relying on plate armor, which is very, very good. Almost literal tanks on the battle field. With the idea in mind, that plate is not the catch all armor, but actually... it requires a HUGE deal of investment to wear the plate that is invulnerable to firearms, many players will choose alternatives. The firearm proof armor should be seen as ineffective, as firearms are ineffective (on a personal level), because the armor is too heavy to be worth the unlikely chance your enemy will have that insta-kill weapon.

Now that plate is not as common (plus magic helps mitigate the success of armor), not wearing armor will still be very viable.

Also, on spartans. They had a spear, short sword that was like a foot long (dagger?), a good helmet that covered most of the face, greaves, and a huge 30lb shield that covered his body. Now, I looked up bronze weights, iron weights, and steel weights. Though I don't know the accuracy, as I did not see carbon steel, nor am I familiar enough with what I was looking at. But the numbers seemed relatively similar. What if I took their giant shield and made it out of carbon steel, like plate. How much heavier would it be? How much would I have the stretch the reality of the strength of these people?

Assuming he is wearing the equipment I described, carbon steel version. Equivalent versions to the knight. They do battle. What is to be said about the huge spartan shield? Is there not an advantage to "wearing your plate on your sleeves?" I mean, 30lbs of steel as a shield is a lot like 45-60lbs of steel armor surrounding your body. The shield simply requires proper placement. But, with a naked body behind a large shield, you have great agility and dexterity. And isn't that going to the most important part? The spartans weapons are ineffective against the plate, he'll basically need to use his shield and wrestling skills to tackle the armored opponent to the ground and kill him. This would be very hard with his sword, I imagine, as it is not very thin. But in the context of this fantasy game, I don't find it far fetched that a spartan could use a thin, european dagger in addition to his other kit. This may feel like it's breaking the point.... but, I believe that man at arms > spartan, even on equal ground. I think, the player would need to make an active decision to use technology to his advantage, that the spartan did not have, but probably would have used. I can't see spartans wearing loads of plate armor, they wore some (I believe), but it's hot down there, isn't it? And... greeks just seem to enjoy not wearing clothes. Maybe that's just romanticism.

Also, ponder over this, if you'd like. We've talked about the metaphor of a spear being a rifle and a hand gun being a sword.

Well, simply put, Call of Duty is a Fantasy Role Playing Game, much like dungeons and dragons or world of warcraft. In Call of Duty, you role play the fantasy of being a soldier. It felt pretty real, until Battle Field upped the ante. But still, when you play Call of Duty, the guns in the game feel like they are mostly being accurately represented. Snipers feel like snipers, shotguns, pistols, rocket launcher, they all feel like they are working the way they should be. Why? Because we have people that exist today that use these things for their designed purpose. Every. single. day. We know how this stuff works. But, world of warcarft, or dungeons and dragons.... Even more actiony and less seemlingly strategical games.... like God of War. Hack and Slash games, even the more "realistic" ones. None of them portray actually hand to hand combat (historical martial arts, basically) in the way it actually worked. Instead, you swing and cut people. You buy a bigger sword and you kill bigger people.

I want a game where you can play as a soldier in these past times... that feels as real as Call of Duty. Everyone can feel that it is fake, but it is still fun, and no one can say the weapons aren't realistic, just that they may not be perfect. Then, I want to take this realism, and add in the element of fantasy. Such as the Nazi Zombie trend. But this aspect would be the main game, not a secondary game.

I need to understand why things happened the way that they did, and how the ancient tools of human history worked, compared, and contrasted to each other. Even if there is no logical, realistic, of historical reasoning behind why we are comparing them.

Side note, it has occurred to me, that in my rewritten history, thus far.... Some vikings were taken over by Romans, and then, these vikings and romans (not all the romans, just the small part where the vikings are) evolve into the holy roman empire/men at arms group. That might hurt your head or heart to read... I know it's all backwards and f***ed up. Also, the knights of the Crusades, which will be translated into Paladins, will be part of the same group of people who are/were going to be called Knights. Group, as in nation or faction. Knights would not refer to a no one really exclusively. Knight will refer to a mercenary, whether noble or peasant, rich or wealthy. The reason for this is that the "high priest" has offered absolution for anyone who joins the crusades, not only this, he rewards anyone who joins service with the title of knight (stretching above his authority), and proclaims that the "holy order" will pay a great deal of gold to your eldest heir if you do not make it back from the crusade.

[Pieter B.]

[T. Brandt]

http://forum.rpg.net/forumdisplay.php?3-Tabletop-Roleplaying-Open

The RPG you want to make may already exist. If not, consult them about the numbers and the theme work.

[Matt J]

I have seen The Walking Dead and Mad Max. I do understand what you are saying, and where you are coming from.

Consider this: A more powerful group than that in The Walking Dead, and a more powerful group than any of the ones in Mad Max exist in my world. My world is not post-apocalyptic... it is on the brink of apocalypse. You get to play through armageddon. You've joined this group of warriors that has banded together. As a community of defenders, you are being supported 1) by something you should equate to the vatican or the pope, but before it had gained the power it does today. Supported by a semi-powerful (gaining momentum) religious group. You are also supported by a united nations sort of thing that was designed by a group of Wizards who were tired of seeing man die at the hands of other men. Also, you are being funded, to varying degrees, by the various factions of man. This group that you belong to, is similar to an army composed of mankind's soldiers, though, imagine the entire world's elite soldiers. Whether knight, archer, samurai, barbarian, etc, you'll be working in this same force.

You are right, a group of 4 or 5 adventurers would not realistically be able to use a tank, and if a tank is truly like plate armor, that is fine. A group of 4 or 5 adventurers is highly unlikely to be an entire group of plate armor. And, if they were, they'd have a clear weakness: magic. As, basically.... Wizard > Warrior > Archer > Wizard....

But, if you think as this military force as a true military force, they would have some tanks, some man at arms who have made a name for themselves and purchased plate armor. Now, the army is not 100% tanks, and the tanks are certainly a minority, but they need to go somewhere and do something. It would not be uncommon for you to have a tank in your group... but really... I think we are obsessing over plate so much simply because real life does not have magic. The main concern, for most fantasy groups, is the kind of magic or wizard that you have. Assuming you do have a tough, durable guy for the most part.

Also, the metaphor of plate armor = tank is a little harder to think about. A tank is pretty much better in every regard. Whereas plate armor has down sides. It'll make you run slower, take longer to clear distance. Not sure how much it effects short movements, but I know for a fact that it will slow your running speed. Tanks in real life are quick, at least compared to infantry. Horses, mounted combat, is a lot like being in a vehicle.... and it becomes a tank if you wear full plate while on a horse. That is a true tank. Full Plate + War Horse is the kind of expense that you would need to save up a lot.

I do hope to make plate realistic. For example, First off, you do not have enough room in your barracks to store your goods, so it must be stored in the armory. This is paid for, however, if you own more equipment that you can wear, the excess will cost extra to store. In addition, if you buy full plate you are required (other people have the option) to purchase a special service. In the mornings, the armory's servant's will dress you in your battle gear, and at night if you return, they will undress you. This is only a slight expense. Equipment will also be repaired for on a regular basis (daily), simple repairs for weapons are free. Armor maintenance is not something the military is concerned with. It costs a moderate amount to repair armor, and expensive armor is more expensive to repair and fix.

Equipment will not break very often, but it'll be damaged all the time. I plan to give the players a real feeling of currency and professionalism. I am going to pay them a great deal of money, before I force them to spend it on things every day. I'll give them $100 and take back $99.

In Battlefield, you say they fixed the problem of vehicles being over powered.... how? by magically making rocket launchers that have an advantage over them? Exactly, everyone has some sort of X factor. For me, it might simply be magic.

In my game you start with 0 money. I'm still working out the kinks of character creation, it'll be easier when the game is more fleshed out. But, there is no random wealth or anything. You create your own wealth. Your previous wealth does not matter. Your previous equipment does not matter. All that matters is your future. I'll figure out WHY a man at arms would go to the north without his equipment. But everyone begins with the same journey to the northern strongholds, wearing clothes and with a simple one handed sword for their travels. From here, you make it to the stronghold and basically get standard issue munitions crusader gear and can start working towards your goals. The only way to start with a wealthy character is to die with a wealthy character. Normally, when you die, you can be revived for a steep price... but sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes your body is too destroyed. If you ever need to make a new character, when yours dies, your new character will start with a % of the other's "worth." Your second character is your heir, or son (if your back story permits). So, if you die a wealthy man, your son will start as a wealthy man.

One hit by firearms is not too much. Swords will kill a human in 1 hit. Same with an axe, bow, and most weapons. Maces will not kill you in 1 hit, unless its a crit... or you are VERY strong. But people are weak, it is easy to kill them. If you both have weapons... you can ward eachother. The only way to survive being hit by a blade is to wear armor over where you are being hit. A firearm is not this generous. The only way to survive a bullet is by not getting hit, or by being glanced... maybe.

Firearms, in my mind (and therefor my game), correct me if I am wrong, are very inaccurate compared to other ranged weapons, and they take 1-2 minutes to reload. The range is more than enough to kill someone who does not have a ranged weapon if his own. But imagine like 5 vs 5, one team has 5 firearms and 5 swords, other team as 5 halberds. Of those 5 guys, 3 of them kill their enemies with their 5 gun shots. There are only 2 halberdiers left..... but, no more bullets for another 1-2 minutes. The 2 halberdiers kill the swordsman.

Basically, that idea. The firearm should only be something useful once... but it is as useful as an item can be. As long as you wait for the perfect time to fire, when the enemy is as close as they can be without threatening you, then you can shoot and kill.... and then be vulnerable reloading for a while, or rely on your secondary weapon.

Imagine playing Call of Duty, or Halo, and you chose to have a Rocket Launcher with 1 shot as your primary weapon. It is easy to kill someone now, but after you do... it will be harder to rely only on your revolver.

It's really not excessive. In my game, where the average health is 10 or 15, and the average weapon does about 5-10 dmg (plus another 3-4 over time), most people will not survive a weapon hit.

In DnD, when you are struck by a weapon, you lose health as if there was a grace period between being stabbed and then dying. I don't mean a bleeding out grace period. I mean, 1 stab = nothing, 2 stabs = nothing, 3 stabs and I've immediately died. In my game, if and when you take health damage.... it will almost surely be the end. The majority of the damage you take does not hurt your health. It hurts your armor, your weapons, your stamina, possibly your time. If you afforded the most durable armor in the game - plate - you will notice, that when other people are losing blood, you are simply losing investment. As you fight with your plate armor, it gets damaged, you get stunned, staggered, knocked around.... and you come back with damaged equipment, instead of a damaged body.

I believe is was a Discovery channel thing, or Wiki.... idk. Either way, the point is, they had a huge shield that was fairly, if not very, heavy.

I understand that the Spartan's equipment is not designed for plate armor. Neither is the Samurai. That is why both of them would fail against a Knight or Man at arms. But, a Spartan in this time period may have opted for a different shaped spear head... and I'd argue that would not ruin his being a spartan. What weapons are longer than hoplite spears? Or spears in general, are the dory's anything special?

Call of Duty is incredibly realistic if compare it to medieval fantasy games. Role playing games, not war games. There are many strategy war games (total war) that are realistic representations of historical warfare. But, like I said, I am not making a war game. And Call of Duty is not a war game. It is a roleplaying game that uses modern warfare as a setting. Medieval fantasy role playing games, or... just generically speaking, roleplaying games where swords are the main weapons, do not portray your weapons as anything different. It's all about customizing your character's abilities, and treating all the weapons as either 1 handed (1 dmg) or 2 handed (2dmg). When it comes to roleplaying as a US Soldier, and roleplaying as a european man at arms, knight, archer, or anything in that spectrum, there is a giant difference.

Roleplaying as a US Soldier, what is the most important aspect? Your skill, obviously, but skill aside, it is mostly your equipment. Scar or M-16? 9mm or Revolver?

Roleplaying as a Knight, however, what is the most important aspect? Do you have the lvl 60 sword or the lvl 80 sword? Do you have the correct amount of Strength vs Dexterity? Which ability should I upgrade, Charge or Shield Bash?

It's just a completely different mindset for modern role playing, simply because we know exactly how all of these things work.

[Pieter B.]

[Tom King]

If you'd entertain a rewrite, your concept of "the north" actually fits well within real history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_the_Teutonic_Order

The Teutonic State is something that is straight up ignored, or at best glossed over, on the few pages devoted to western history each year in our school systems but was a major regional power in northern europe for hundreds of years. Add a bit of "divergent history" and have your magical portals pop up around 1450 and let it go from there. You'd have northern europeans, polish, liquanains, military orders, mercenaries, etc. and more importantly a reason for them all to be grouped together and at each others throats. Really neat weapons and armor all around to boot.

[T. Kew]

[Matt J]

Plate Armor:

I've listened to everything you guys have said about Plate Armor, and I believe I've got it down.

First and foremost, plate is very expensive and very durable armor. When wearing it, it does not slow or impair your movement, nor does it effect your reaction speed. However, it is heavy, and does require constant use of your body's strength to wear. Plate, and all armor of weight, will increase the amount of stamina required to perform actions.

Plate armor takes too long to put on individually, and you must pay the armory servants to dress you at the beginning of each day. Because plate armor is so much more expensive than other steel armor, repairing it and providing regular maintenance will often times be too expensive for an individual to afford. Having a player or two wearing plate armor will be a decision that is needed to be made by the entire group, as other members may very well need to help pay to keep the armor functional. This shouldn't be a huge problem, after all, the man-at-arms will be taking the majority of the hits. Other people like wizards and archers will not spend as much on repairs.... though, I'm not sure about the expense of arrows.

This game is not like a free roam game where you travel across the world. You will spend the majority of the beginning of the game at a specific stronghold in the north. You will participate in patrols, quests, daily work, etc, etc. Military things. There will be a siege about a week after you arrive. There are lots of things that need to be done. You will eventually get to the point where you will explore new areas. But, you are part of a military force, you will spend most of your time within a perimeter of your base.

It requires Strength to carry equipment, what ever strength you have left over is called unused strength. Unused strength serves several purposes, including Fatigue. Your unused strength determines the amount of days you can spend in your armor before becoming fatigued. If plate requires 2 Strength to carry, and you have 3 Strength, you can stay in it for a "day" before it become fatiguing.

Sleep outside? Take a dump? Get bogged down? I don't know man, it's war. Soldiers today live through some pretty harsh stuff while carrying a 100lbs worth of gear. I'm sure they were doing it back in the day, too. I'm not saying it's without penalties, just that it is far from impossible.

A guy in plate armor could not swim. That is one thing I dislike about many fantasies... I doubt a guy in mail could swim.... hell, have you ever tried swimming in leather? Or BDUs for that matter? Like camo. I swam in a military uniform in college, it is very difficult, and I image swimming in that puffy-arm european clothing they wore would be difficult, too.

You're right, you cannot go far if you need to return. It will progress to the point of going out for days at a time, scenarios like these are the ones where players go.... I don't know if I can last 2 days in plate armor, maybe I'll bring my mail for this one.

First off, the guys going North are not Man-at-arms, they are just included. Lots of different people are going north. But lets talk about the man-at-arms.

You go to the north with nothing except a cloth tunic and pants, and a short longsword. Or a one hander. I've looked at the Oakeshott, I know the one I chose, it's just.... it's a one hander, and I'm worried teaching people to use a longsword and then equipping them with a regular sword might not translate well. I know you are suppose to use a sword and buckler, but I want to start people with the bare, bare, bare minimum.

Why? Because it is a game. I can not bog people down in loads of options and rules. Everyone is going to simply learn the basics of swordsmanship. Then they will go to the north and begin in a tutorial map, right outside of the castle wall. This consists of a few homes with some undead peasants walking around. These are basically punching bags. Teach my players how to use a longsword by having them practice swinging at zombies instead of each other or targets.

Sunday is my first play test with my updated rules. I have used A LOT of information from this website, and I plan to promote this website as I promote my game, as there is a lot that I simply will not cover. Their characters will be taught about the 4 guards, the 3 cuts, and thrusting and slicing. Ideally, they will practice going from Roof Guard to Fool's Guard with an Over-cut, then use an Under-cut to go into Ox. They will practice these techniques, in a fantasy setting. Then, they will go to the stronghold. And, among many other options, will be provided the 5 Master cuts to learn. Let me emphasize... there are a lot of options, being a swordsman is a small part of this game, I just want to make sure that it is a correct part.

Firearms...

"Would to heaven that this accursed engine [the arquebus] had never been invented, I had not then received those wounds which I now languish under, neither had so many valiant men been slain for the most part by the most pitiful fellows and the greatest cowards..."[1]

I copied the quote from the guy. This is exactly my point. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it is as a general rule, a weapon that will kill you in one hit. Like a sword, except the firearm does not care if you are wearing steel. The point of the Arquebus, in my game, will be to get a kill, most likely, no matter who you aim it at. But only once.

Tom, I actually checked out the Teutonic Knights last night. I would most certainly entertain a rewrite. Nothing is set in stone, it's just easier to change existing ideas than it is to come up with them, so I just start by compiling ideas... and then I work from there.

When you get to the Stronghold, there are currently 3 Crusader "factions" you can join. You don't need to join any of them, they are holy orders. A lot of crusaders are not in it for the holiness. There will a Man-At-Arms who is a Knight. This guy is a run-of-the-mill mercenary. There is the Templar Order, and you can join them. You must be a unwed. If you join them, you must give them everything you own. But, upon joining their cause, you will be given equipment... depending on the class you choose. Note that the choice of your class determines NOTHING except the armor that he chooses to give you. This a historical class, not a fantasy class. The classes are Noble, Peasant, and Priest. Nobles become Templar Knights, Peasants become Sergeants, and Priests become Chaplains. You can join the Teutonic Order, these guys are a tad different. These guys are all about healing the sick and taking care of the weak. Both the Templar Order and the Teutonic Order are male dominated Paladin groups. Paladin referring to fantasy warrior-priests. The third order, I completely made up. They are currently the Daughters of the Hunt. They are a group of female demon hunters.

I won't get into them, as they are complete bs. But basically, I rewrote the christian mythology (no offense to those who consider the stories religion). Basically, there was this whore. She gave birth to the king's bastard (?) daughter. The king was not aware of this, nor was he concerned. Many years later, she gave birth to another child. She died in child birth. The child born was grotesque, I'll save you some time and tell you that it is a demon. The demon clawed its way from the womb and attacked two of the people in the room (mid wives or whomever), before it fled into the woods. The whore's daughter hunted down the demon in the forest. She was gone for a while, probably days. She did not venture off alone, there were like a few guys who ran after her or whatever. She did, however, return alone, with the head of the demon. The daughter, and the mid-wives who were clawed, became ill and died from infection. The mid-wives rose again as undead, basically. The daughter did not. That was the last time anyone had seen any demons or undead for centuries before we get to the present.

This is the story of their religion. They worship the sun and moon. Believing the sun to be god and the moon to be, basically, the other side of god (or the sun). Each of the 4 groups have some fundamental differences in their beliefs and interpretations. For example, the Templars are pure, they do not have sex. There are other pretty tight rules, too. The Daughters of the Hunt, however, revere the fertility of womankind, and they are not like nuns or other kinds of christian females. The sexuality of the daughters of the hunt is a huge part of their beliefs - their saint was a whore.

Of course, I need to spend a lot more time checking out the different crusading factions.

"This is a balance that should be familiar to anyone who's looked at the history of weapons and armour. Soldiers throughout late medieval Europe struggled with exactly this balance, and thus we see landschnect infantry in half plate with cut-down pikes. Less effective in combat, but much less hassle to carry about all day for weeks on end. Today we see the same thing - many troops go out without body armour, to carry more water or ammunition or whatever, because it's heavy and bulky and they don't need it most of the time." Pieter

You are absolutely right. I want to write the rules so that the players are allowed to make these decisions themselves. There are many soldiers who go into war WITH body armor. They are the ones who are fighting, they are making certain decisions about how to best do their job. Same is true for the characters in this game, assuming I can make it reflect reality to a decent extent. I want my players to decide between bringing an extra weapon, or steel boots, or another pack of water.

Water and food will be important in my game, in addition to being mandatory items that also take up a portion of the total weight you can carry, they are needed to perform. Water replenishes your stamina and eating prevents fatigue.

If you were going out on a mission just outside of the castle wall... think of it like The Walking Dead, before you go out there... you are going to deck yourself out in whatever you will need. Then, you go out, get your job done, and return. Other times, you may know that you are going to be traveling further, and opt to wear less armor for more longevity... this decision also allows you to bring more rations.

Also, don't forget, you are part of a "squad" or "team." In today's military, it takes two men to man a light machine gun. There is an entire man designated to carry the other man's ammunition (this is not his only job). It's not like you are alone, you have party members with you to share the burden, as well as a military force in the back ground supporting you. This is not the kind of world that could support am army of plate armored soldiers, but it is certainly capable of supporting the idea that one in every 5 soldiers is very capable of being in full plate.

Fair enough on your point about the shield vs plate armor. I'd surmise that a shield provides more protection per unit of burden it puts on the wielder, when compared to plate armor. The shield is a better alternative to someone who does not want to invest so much into plate armor, as it really does require a great deal of investment, not just financially, but tactically. Wearing plate puts you into a position, it gives you purpose... and this might not be the correct purpose for everyone's character.

[Lafayette C Curtis]

[Lafayette C Curtis]