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Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
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 Posted: Sun 13 Feb, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Historical Reproduction Methodology |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
There's nothing wrong with collecting swords that are fantasy-based, "inspired-by" something historic, made up of qualities of various swords, or any combination of those things. But to call each of these things "historical" really must be done with care if we are to be literal about the term. The fact is, one can pick and choose parts that represent a type of sword history would have brought and then accurately call it "historical". But doing so requires careful study and knowledge that keeps those people picking parts and attributes that are consistent for a specific type of sword, for a specific region, and during a specific time. Not doing so just generates another form of a fantasy sword: something that when looked in the most general sense may appear historical, but when compared to the historical record, really couldn't have existed. While these types of fantasy creations are not as "wild" as those versions with claws, cut-out blades, jewels and other elements, they are still a product of imagination (ie, "fantasy") and not something out of the historical record, despite any vague inspirtion by something authentic.
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This is an interesting topic here but I don't like the word "fantasy " applied the way you use it here. To me, a fantasy sword is one that never existed or is outside the bounds of our relaity. To say that I have a fantasy sword in the same category as a stainless steel creations ou described above, simply because I chose the parts from several different historical examples to me is hyperbole. One thing no one mentioned here is that a sword chosen from mixed historical parts could be a very good sword DEPENDING ON THE MAKER!. Now historical purists would argue that ONLY historical examples should be made . That is certainly their opinion. We know from teh historical record that there were certain sword production centers where makers had shops of grinders, forgers and cutlers. Certainly there would haev been some standardization of parts in these places. It would seem that some collectors haev the romantic notion that medieval swords were all custom made for individual clients. HIstorical facts say otherwise; some were and some were made with standard parts and blades. So to dismiss a sword design compiled from several differnt swords as "fantasy" I think is wrong here. Certainly I don't think one created this way shold be called a historical reproduction as reproduction implies the copy of something that exists. However, there must be some category ( if you must) that lies somewhere beween that and fantasy. It brings to mind a similar thread somewhere years back: what does historical reproduction mean? The same methods used? The same steels used? Take , for example, the Sture sword that Peter J studied in detail to reporduce. In the end Peter used modern steels , modern heat treating processes and modern materials for the final product. So it is a "true" historical reproduction? Some may argue no, but rather a great facsimile of an original. I guess this issue is of semantics, but the baggage the term "fantasy" carried with it kinda bothers me. Can any one tell ? 
Joel
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sun 13 Feb, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Just to throw in an overlooked factor: what if a reconstruction is based on a composite sword, assembled from genuine parts in the 19th century, but which no one has revealed as (technically) a fake? 
My sword site
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Chris Post
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| Posted: Sun 13 Feb, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Björn Hellqvist wrote: | | Just to throw in an overlooked factor: what if a reconstruction is based on a composite sword, assembled from genuine parts in the 19th century, but which no one has revealed as (technically) a fake? |
The first thing that springs to my mind are the bad reproductions of the Dybek sword. You may even have one of those on your "fulsvärd sidor", but anyway. What I mean is stuff like this:
...you'd think that these reproduction attempts should have vanished from the market by now. Can PLEASE somebody call Taiwan and tell them that the lower half of the lower guard is a remainder of the scabbard?
Okay, so this is really a cheapskate Wallhanger (<$100), but I've actually seen at least one decisively more expensive Dybek "repro" (>$300) with the same messed up lower guard. 
Skeppsmannens härsmakt räddes ej väta:
blodulvar vadade väst över Panta:
fram över flodens glimmande vatten
buro de lindesköldar i land.
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2005 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Björn Hellqvist wrote: | | Just to throw in an overlooked factor: what if a reconstruction is based on a composite sword, assembled from genuine parts in the 19th century, but which no one has revealed as (technically) a fake? |
Exactly, how many historical examples are themselves actually composite swords? That is they were put together from parts in the 19th century or perhaps a particular sword may have a blade from one century but have been fitted out with the latest fashionable hilt components. The viking pattern welded blade in the katzbalger mounts that Oakeshott references comes to mind. As they say nothing new under the sun.... some swords might be implausible but I'm hard pressed to say that anything is impossible.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Chris Post
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| Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2005 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Just for exactness' sake, the Katzbalger you mention has a 7th Spatha blade, with wurmbunt pattern, iirc of Alemannic origin. The sword is now on display in the Schweizer Landesmuseum Zürich.
So anyway, that blade had been in use for about eight hundred years (maybe with interruptions), that's really remarkable.
Skeppsmannens härsmakt räddes ej väta:
blodulvar vadade väst över Panta:
fram över flodens glimmande vatten
buro de lindesköldar i land.
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 21 Feb, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Post wrote: | Just for exactness' sake, the Katzbalger you mention has a 7th Spatha blade, with wurmbunt pattern, iirc of Alemannic origin. The sword is now on display in the Schweizer Landesmuseum Zürich.
So anyway, that blade had been in use for about eight hundred years (maybe with interruptions), that's really remarkable. |
Thanks for the additional information Chris, I did not know that it was a Spatha blade. I wonder if I can find a picture...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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