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Lance Higgins




Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Joined: 03 Jun 2004

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 3:12 pm    Post subject: Historical Combat Instruction         Reply with quote

I am interested in learning historical armed combat techniques.
I have access to many wonderful resources and historical manuals on sword training etc.....
But here is my dilemma,
while it may be readily obvious to an experienced practicioner what is being conveyed in these manuals a novice like myself can not make out in any useful way what the majority of the movements being taught in these books actually are. It is very hard for me to glean much useful information from centuries old hand drawings and the mostly untranslated text. (even when translated I am at a loss)
It seems just trying to go by the illustrations, you could never get any idea of actual movement and proper form.
So here are my questions:
Am I alone here or does anyone have the same problem?
Are there any instruction materials out there to make things understandable for those that cannot figure out complicated series of movements from few hand drawn (sometimes poorly drawn) pictures?
I do not begin to insult the works of the masters, it is more my lack of being able to make much sense of that mastery from what is provided to my poor 21st century visual input processing system.
Can any of you fine experienced gentlemen recommend and training materials that you might have used to get you familiar enough with the basics to be able to look at one of these manuals and have a good idea of what they were trying to convey?
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chivalry Bookshelf offers many worthwhile titles. Quite a few of these are translations of the period manuscripts, with accompanying photographs that help the reader break down the action.

www.chivalrybookshelf.com

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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P. Owens





Joined: 29 Jul 2004

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You might also try visiting Schola St. George which happens to have a branch in Dallas. You can learn more about them at their web site --Google their name and it should pop right up. Brian Price, the publisher behind Chivalry Bookshelf, is the principle instructor there.

You might also think about attending one of the many HES conferences that are held each year. These would allow you to learn a variety of different systems from a variety of instructors, helping you decide what system and what approach you would like to take to the material. There are two that I know of at the end of the summer. ISMAC will be in August, and WMAW will be in September. Google each and add the word "sword" and you should be able to find more information on each.

Regards,

~PO
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Lance Higgins




Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Joined: 03 Jun 2004

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject: Historical Combat Instruction         Reply with quote

Patrick, thanks for the bookstore link. It is amazing how simply I can pick up the gist of what is going on from an actual photograph demonstrating the move. I found a book and ordered it that looks promising. I saw an illustration from a historic manual depicting a technique with two drawn figures and then with two participants demonstrating the same thing in a photograph, i grasped immediately what was going on from the photo. I look at the historic illustration again and would never have guesses that the two depictions were showing the same thing. A photo just helps me understand spatial relations and positions far better.

P. Owens, thanks for the heads up on instruction that is withing a 20 minute drive of my location. Are they open to beginners or is it an experienced only setup?

Any one else with sites or info to recommend please let me know, i will take any info you have.

Thanks.
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lance-

Personally, if I were that close to Schola, I'd be seriously checking into them. Nothing is going to beat knowledgeable instruction and a competent sparring partner.

I would suggest you think on what period / style you want to learn. If your interest is in rapiers, for example, you won't get satisfaction from I:33's sword and buckler or Ringneck's German longsword. You might want to look into Price's Renaissance Swordsmanship (or something close... has a black and red cover). For me, the German Longsword is my bag; my personal favorites are Tobler's books. The photo-essays are good with a solid study and a lot of time spent with sword in hand. They are NOT chill on the couch and read cover to cover and expect to really have a clear understanding. There are lots of others as well for lots of other styles and periods - we may be able to help you best if you can give us a better idea of what you are looking for. Help us narrow the field a bit, and we can put you on target faster.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Gene Davis




Location: Long Island, NY
Joined: 08 Jan 2005

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 5:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lance,
After nearly 30 years of active sword training and instructing in both Japanese and European systems my advice is find an experienced, reputable instructor who can watch you train and make corrections when needed. Once you have the basics down correctly the books are great, but without that initial in-person guidance, you're likely to develop bad habits that are hard to be rid of after a while. It's kind of like learning to drive a car by reading a book: possible, but not really recommended. And remember, most of the fechtbucher and manuals were directed at experienced swordsmen who already had the basics down and a lot of training time under their belts. That's part of why the old manuals are not readily understandable to beginners. They weren't meant to be. Hope this helps, and best of luck to you.


Last edited by Gene Davis on Tue 05 Apr, 2005 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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David Kite




Location: Clinton, IN USA
Joined: 20 Feb 2004

Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 6:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ARMA also has a Dallas/Ft. Worth study group. Go to ARMA's practice partner page to get the email contacts. http://www.thearma.org/Practice/partners.htm

Okay, though I'm too computer illiterate to post a working link, you've at least got the url there. Sorry.

David Kite
ARMA in IN
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 6:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Kite wrote:
Okay, though I'm too computer illiterate to post a working link, you've at least got the url there. Sorry.


The link works for me, David... either dumb luck or you're underestimating your skills... Razz

Another good resource. Man, I wish I was able to have all these resources in MY back yard.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Lance Higgins




Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Joined: 03 Jun 2004

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2005 3:15 pm    Post subject: Historical Combat Techniques         Reply with quote

Aaron, Gene and David,

Thank you for your helpful responses. I agree, person to person instruction would be best. I have tried fruitlessly to find someone willing to give private instruction which would better suit the travel schedule of my job.

I have looked into ARMA in my area, it seemed like exactly what I was looking for.
I sent emails inquiring about the study group. On their site it says "resource for historical fencing and medieval and renaissance combat techniques"
While I am aware they did not teach the traditional sport fencing with a foil ,I made the mistake of using the term I saw on the site "historical fencing" in my inquiry email.
I was responded to with an email stating the fact that they don't teach fencing. After an explanation of why fencing was not a correct term It was explained what they do cover. While the email was not rude in any way, the way it was presented gave the impression that it might be a very stiff group with not much room for a beginner. I am sure I took the email the wrong way but after being in the firearms community for many years I have encountered quite a few elitist attitudes that discouraged beginners. (I am not saying that that is what I encountered with ARMA in any way)
I just wanted to avoid finding that in my introduction to the bladed weapons community so I never investigated further. I will look into it again as like I said I probably interpreted the response in the wrong way.

I look forward to looking into Schola St. George. Thanks again guys for your helpful responses and information.

I am very interested in Long sword instruction as well as medieval and Viking single handed sword instruction. I also have a Gladius I would like to learn how to use. I guess my interests focus on those areas, so any other references you can provide for a newby keep it coming. Thanks again Gentlemen.
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Reading list: 67 books

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Posts: 1,244

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Historical Combat Techniques         Reply with quote

Lance Higgins wrote:
I am very interested in Long sword instruction as well as medieval and Viking single handed sword instruction. I also have a Gladius I would like to learn how to use. I guess my interests focus on those areas, so any other references you can provide for a newby keep it coming. Thanks again Gentlemen.


Lance-

That's a lot of territory. Not that this is a problem (sounds actually like me over the years). I'm sure you can explore lots of these, but I'll predict you'll find a particular area of study you really like above the others.

If I were in your shoes, I would consider the following in order:

    Check the groups in the area. If there is a good fit, you will find experienced guidance. I have no personal experience with any of them, but I have with a lot of people who are involved with reenactment and western martial arts. Some of them were the coolest people I've ever met. Some, well... I'm certain this is the case everywhere one goes.

    Learn from a book with a friend. (I'll get to books later) Find a friend who is interested. You can watch each other (form, fluidity) and help turn a series of sequential pictures into motion. Learn the very basics first. Stances, cuts, guards. Then work through the exercises, sequences.

    Learn from a book by yourself. Work with a mirror. Videotape yourself. See if you can watch yourself somehow. Again, start slow, stay consistent.


Now, on to books. Since you have expressed an interest in both longsword and sword and shield, there are a number of decent books. I like Tobler's books on the German Longsword best. I've already admitted this period and form is my current passion, but I'm not letting this bias my recommendation. The books are the easiest of the books that I have seen to understand. (Keep in mind, I haven't seen them all, and you should not take me as an authority on all material out there.) Sword and shield gives a couple of options I can comment on. I find Clement's book on medieval swordsmanship to be decent. It's not as clear and easy to follow, but still decent. A bit generic, so it could cover most of your sword & shield work - at least the fundamentals. A more specific book on sword & shield work is one on I:33 - the exact title escapes me, but the cover is black with a couple of guys fighting on the front - one about to skewer the other downward through his chest. It appears decent, but I haven't payed much attention as I'm frankly not that interested. Hopefully others will chime in with other recommendations.

Best of luck... keep us posted!

-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________

Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2005 8:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All of C.H. Tobler's books on German swordsmanship are excellent.

Guy Windsor's book The Swordsman's Companion is outstanding as well. This is an excellent resource for the begining student who has to train alone, in fact that's one of the books primary focuses. This one is based around the Italian longsword school.

The books on the Royal Armouries Manuscript I.33 are The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship by Jeffrey Forgeng, and Medieval Sword and Shield by Paul Wagner and Stephen Hand. The former is a copy of the original manuscript with translated text, while the later is a modern breakdown of the techniques illustrated in the manuscript. The system described in these centers around the sword and buckler, not the sword and shield combat of the armoured knight.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
The books on the Royal Armouries Manuscript I.33 are The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship by Jeffrey Forgeng, and Medieval Sword and Shield by Paul Wagner and Stephen Hand. The former is a copy of the original manuscript with translated text, while the later is a modern breakdown of the techniques illustrated in the manuscript. The system described in these centers around the sword and buckler, not the sword and shield combat of the armoured knight.


The book I was referring to is the Wagner/Hand book - thanks! Also, good point as to the book's focus - hadn't been clear enough about this distinction. The buckler isn't quite what comes to mind when the average Joe closes his eyes and envisions "shield". The techniques within are quite different than what would be stereotyically expected either. Given Lance's expressed interests, I'm guessing I:33 isn't going to be his primary, immediate, and undying passion.

I'll definitely have to check out Guy Windsor's book myself - good tip!

-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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David Kite




Location: Clinton, IN USA
Joined: 20 Feb 2004

Posts: 106

PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Historical Combat Techniques         Reply with quote

Lance Higgins wrote:
Aaron, Gene and David,

I have looked into ARMA in my area, it seemed like exactly what I was looking for.
I sent emails inquiring about the study group. On their site it says "resource for historical fencing and medieval and renaissance combat techniques"
While I am aware they did not teach the traditional sport fencing with a foil ,I made the mistake of using the term I saw on the site "historical fencing" in my inquiry email.
I was responded to with an email stating the fact that they don't teach fencing. After an explanation of why fencing was not a correct term It was explained what they do cover. While the email was not rude in any way, the way it was presented gave the impression that it might be a very stiff group with not much room for a beginner. I am sure I took the email the wrong way but after being in the firearms community for many years I have encountered quite a few elitist attitudes that discouraged beginners. (I am not saying that that is what I encountered with ARMA in any way)
I just wanted to avoid finding that in my introduction to the bladed weapons community so I never investigated further. I will look into it again as like I said I probably interpreted the response in the wrong way.


I met a few of them a couple years ago. Every ARMA guy I've met has been pretty easy going, and I've never met one with an elitist attitude, though many of us consider ARMA to be hands down the best approach. I don't mean to speak for you or for the study group, but it was probably just a misinterpretation on what was meant by "historical fencing". The way the ARMA curriculum is set up, there should be plenty of room for a beginner, and it shouldn't take long to get sufficiently caught up.

I suggest getting in contact with them again, and then attend a practice session or two. First-hand experience is really the best way to form an opinion, IMO. Wink

David Kite
ARMA in IN
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R. D. Simpson




Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
David Kite
ARMA in IN


Exactly where are you located in IN, David? I'm in Anderson, and have been looking for a WMA group, but I didn't think there were any ARMA groups in IN. Is your group accepting new members?
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David Kite




Location: Clinton, IN USA
Joined: 20 Feb 2004

Posts: 106

PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R. D. Simpson wrote:
Exactly where are you located in IN, David? I'm in Anderson, and have been looking for a WMA group, but I didn't think there were any ARMA groups in IN. Is your group accepting new members?


PM sent

David Kite
ARMA in IN
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Lance Higgins




Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Joined: 03 Jun 2004

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 4:03 pm    Post subject: Historical Combat Techniques         Reply with quote

Wow, I am getting much useful information with each post. Thanks guys.

I realize my interests are all over the place but as I learn more I will be able to narrow my focus on what I would like to study.
I am hoping that one of the recommended study groups I will be trying will fit me and my learning style.

I have purchased a wonderful publication from the book seller Patrick recommended that is geared towards the beginner
as far as terminology, history, areas of study and such. I will know soon be able to understand more of the references made in the conversations I follow in this forum.
I am making the first step in my education of the blade and am very excited.
I am looking forward to both self study and guided study and person to person practice as well.

Thanks
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Lance Higgins




Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Joined: 03 Jun 2004

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 4:34 pm    Post subject: Historical Combat Techniques         Reply with quote

Aaron,
Guy Windsor's book was the one I purchased to start out with. For a total beginner like me it is perfect. It will be a great stepping stone in my education.
For someone who had no knowledge in the subject it has answered many of my most basic questions that I was not comfortable asking on a site with more advanced persons.
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Aaron Schnatterly




Location: New Glarus, WI
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Historical Combat Techniques         Reply with quote

Lance Higgins wrote:
For someone who had no knowledge in the subject it has answered many of my most basic questions that I was not comfortable asking on a site with more advanced persons.


Lance-

All of us started from the beginning. Get comfortable. Settle in. Ask. We'll be glad to help. You've seen some of this willingness to help in this thread alone. Big Grin

Patrick's a great resource - always steered me in the right direction. I'm glad to hear about the book - I'll look for it as well. Even though it's focus is the Italian Longsword, a lot of the general information will help across the ages. Of course, the book won't cover the other periods and styles you expressed interest in, but this is an excellent place to begin. I hope you find it enjoyable and personally enlightening.

-Aaron Schnatterly
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(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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