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Alina Boyden





Joined: 19 Apr 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2005 6:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Take a look at this sword as an example of the simpler decoration of earlier times. This is from the Topkapi museum in Istanbul and is provenanced at somewhere between 1242 and 1258AD. If you look at the first third of the sword near the hilt you can see the engraved inscription but it is plain, simple, and small.
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Danny Grigg





Joined: 17 Sep 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2005 10:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alina

Thanks for all the information and the differences between a Tabar and a Tabarzin.

Would it be correct to say that Tabars are two handed and Tabarzins are one handed and used mostly by Cavalry / horseman?

Sorry to be a pain but what are the actual Islamic / Arabic names of the 2 maces and the hammer in my original post??

Also what's the difference between a Tabar / Tabarzin and a Balta? I believe Balta is a Turkish / Ottoman word for Battle Axe.

Do you have any pictures of Baltas?
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Alina Boyden





Joined: 19 Apr 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2005 11:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:
Alina

Thanks for all the information and the differences between a Tabar and a Tabarzin.

Would it be correct to say that Tabars are two handed and Tabarzins are one handed and used mostly by Cavalry / horseman?

Sorry to be a pain but what are the actual Islamic / Arabic names of the 2 maces and the hammer in my original post??

Also what's the difference between a Tabar / Tabarzin and a Balta? I believe Balta is a Turkish / Ottoman word for Battle Axe.

Do you have any pictures of Baltas?


Ok, if a balta is the turkish name for axe...then....they're all baltas. I don't have any specific examples using that terminology. As far as a tabar being two handed, I'd say no. Tabar means axe. Tabarzin is just more accurate when referring to the small saddle axes I showed.

Islamic isn't a language so the region doesn't have a name as such. Arabic and Persian (Farsi) along with Turkish are the usual languages. A mace, preferred by Persians is called a "gurz." That's very generic though. I don't know how to say lion-head mace in Persian and I'm absolutely positive there isn't a single word for them. I don't know how to refer to the warhammers any other way than warhammer. I'm not sure why you'd even want to. If you can't read Farsi then it isn't going to help you look for anything.
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Danny Grigg





Joined: 17 Sep 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 2:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alina

Have you heard of the names Amud, Dabbus, Topus and Latt for Islamic maces?

From the book "The Wars of the Crusades 1096-1291" by Terence Wise:

There were two types of mace: amud, which had an iron head on a wooden shaft; and dabbus, which was all-metal. The heads of both were frequently round or slightly pear-shaped and almost smooth, but others were hatched so as to create teeth, or had flanges or spikes. Maces were popular with the cavalry of most armies, hung from the saddle or tucked through the right side of the waist belt, especially with the Turks when closing to finish a fight, and the Mamluks.

I have also heard the term Latt for a type of mace used by Islamic armies during the Crusades but I have no other information apart from the name.

I'm not sure how accurate the information is from the book by T. Wise as the book was in my local library and published in 1978 I think.

The description of round / pear-shaped heads also sounds like the Amud and Dabbus maces were the same type of mace as a Bulawa.

From the book The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons Edited by Leonid Tarassuk & Claude Blair

Bulawa
A mace with a globular or pear-shaped head, known for centuries in many Oriental and Eastern European countries such as India, Persia, Turkey, Russia, Hungary, and Poland (where the word "Bulawa" originated). It also made sporadic appearances in western Europe.
In ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, the mace of similar forms was regarded as a symbol of rank in the hands of the Pharaohs and Kings. It was also used as a votive offering, when it would have had a simple stone or clay head. Although it was used as a war club, it remained chiefly a token of military rank or sovereignty and would have been given, for example, to the Transylvanian Princes or Walachian Hospodars. In Poland, Russia and the Ukraine it denoted the office of hetman or commander-in-chief of the army.
The Turkish war Bulawa (Topus) was usually made of steel. A symbolic one, however, was made with a decorative head of some precious metal or of rock crystal, horn or ivory and according to the material used, chased, gilded, nielloed, or encrusted with gems. The wooden handle was covered with decorated metal and sometimes concealed a stylus.
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Alina Boyden





Joined: 19 Apr 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:
Alina

Have you heard of the names Amud, Dabbus, Topus and Latt for Islamic maces?

From the book "The Wars of the Crusades 1096-1291" by Terence Wise:

There were two types of mace: amud, which had an iron head on a wooden shaft; and dabbus, which was all-metal. The heads of both were frequently round or slightly pear-shaped and almost smooth, but others were hatched so as to create teeth, or had flanges or spikes. Maces were popular with the cavalry of most armies, hung from the saddle or tucked through the right side of the waist belt, especially with the Turks when closing to finish a fight, and the Mamluks.

I have also heard the term Latt for a type of mace used by Islamic armies during the Crusades but I have no other information apart from the name.

I'm not sure how accurate the information is from the book by T. Wise as the book was in my local library and published in 1978 I think.

The description of round / pear-shaped heads also sounds like the Amud and Dabbus maces were the same type of mace as a Bulawa.

From the book The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons Edited by Leonid Tarassuk & Claude Blair

Bulawa
A mace with a globular or pear-shaped head, known for centuries in many Oriental and Eastern European countries such as India, Persia, Turkey, Russia, Hungary, and Poland (where the word "Bulawa" originated). It also made sporadic appearances in western Europe.
In ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, the mace of similar forms was regarded as a symbol of rank in the hands of the Pharaohs and Kings. It was also used as a votive offering, when it would have had a simple stone or clay head. Although it was used as a war club, it remained chiefly a token of military rank or sovereignty and would have been given, for example, to the Transylvanian Princes or Walachian Hospodars. In Poland, Russia and the Ukraine it denoted the office of hetman or commander-in-chief of the army.
The Turkish war Bulawa (Topus) was usually made of steel. A symbolic one, however, was made with a decorative head of some precious metal or of rock crystal, horn or ivory and according to the material used, chased, gilded, nielloed, or encrusted with gems. The wooden handle was covered with decorated metal and sometimes concealed a stylus.


Yeah I have a bunch of pictures of those. But I haven't posted them because I think they're ugly. I think your suspicions are correct and all three words refer to the same thing. Do you know what languages they're from? India, Persia, Turkey, Hungary, Russia, and Poland all spoke different languages at this time.
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Mumtaz Baber




Location: The Shire , UK
Joined: 18 Dec 2004

Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat 07 May, 2005 1:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

tabars come in all shapes and sizes, but most commonly tabar is the word used to describe the axes with the crescent shaped blades, whether its a single head or a double head.
In Pakistan , to most people normal axes are termed as "kohari" or "kawaari", and those with crescent shaped heads are termed "tabar". In many places in Pakistan a good tabar is still highly valued , and still carried daily in some rural places , Kashmir for example.
The lion head mace is very reminiscent of Indian Moghul maces I saw in the Wallace Collection, though the Moghuls borrowed many things from Persia - Farsee (persian) was even the official language of the Moghul Court. Many of the Moghul maces I saw with tiger heads could have been imported or copied from Persia .

Regards

Mumtaz Baber
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Danny Grigg





Joined: 17 Sep 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 07 May, 2005 6:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What happened to all the pics that were posted by Alina, they have all disappeared????

To you answer your question Alina:

Bulawa is Polish.
Topus I assume is Turkish.
Amud, Dabbus and Latt, I have no idea what language
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Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sat 07 May, 2005 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:
What happened to all the pics that were posted by Alina, they have all disappeared????

Wow - poof! They are gone. As I recall, there is a limit on cumulative KB of pictures that can be posted by an individual in the forums. Maybe Alina hit that limit?
Edit - I went back to my profile, and it shows a 4MB quota for uploads. My profile only shows 150+KB, but I know that Alina has posted a lot of pictures. I think that the quota is dependent on membership type.
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Danny Grigg





Joined: 17 Sep 2004

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Posts: 337

PostPosted: Tue 10 May, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did anyone save ALL the pics that were posted by Alina before they disappeared?

If so and you are willing to email them to me please send me a private message.

Thanks

Danny Grigg
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