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G. Scott H.




Location: Arizona, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2005 9:15 pm    Post subject: Pugios?         Reply with quote

I've developed an interest recently in the pugio. The two pugios that have caught my eye are the MRL version and the Deepeeka version that Albion sells. To me, as a rank amateur, the Deepeeka looks like the more accurate of the two.
The trouble is, I haven't really heard anything on Deepeeka, good or bad. Any thoughts, opinions, etc.? Thanks. Happy
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2005 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Pugios?         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
I've developed an interest recently in the pugio. The two pugios that have caught my eye are the MRL version and the Deepeeka version that Albion sells. To me, as a rank amateur, the Deepeeka looks like the more accurate of the two.
The trouble is, I haven't really heard anything on Deepeeka, good or bad. Any thoughts, opinions, etc.? Thanks. Happy


I've heard a great deal of bad about Deepeeka but haven't bought from them myself.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2005 9:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Would like to know about the quality also: Is the steel capable of taking and holding a decent edge and how strong is the tang ? Just had a look on the Albion site and it does " look " good, and the price is low enough that I don't expect the same quality a $500 dollar version would be.

The tangs I've seen in picture of originals didn't look very robust to me !

Sometimes I don't mind if one makes things " better " or stronger than what was historicaly done.

With a little positive feedback I might be tempted " Again " Eek!

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G. Scott H.




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PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2005 9:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't help but question Deepeeka's quality, based upon the prices of their swords at By The Sword. On the other hand, I can't imagine a company like Albion selling a total piece of junk either. Hmmmm......... Question Happy
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 05 May, 2005 10:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's exactly why I'm even thinking about it: But this one might be closer to the wall hanger side of the quality spectrum Confused Big Grin

If, nobody gives us an informed first hand opinion about it soon, I might just E-Mail Mike at Albion and ask !

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Robert W. Betten




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 2:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've handled the depeeka pugio at a ren fair...unless you want a wall hanger or a blade which has an edge like 2mm thick I'd recommend looking elsewhere. Happy
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 4:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
I can't help but question Deepeeka's quality, based upon the prices of their swords at By The Sword. On the other hand, I can't imagine a company like Albion selling a total piece of junk either. Hmmmm......... Question Happy

I have no Deepeeka pieces, so cannot comment from personal experience. However, I do understand that Roman reenactors, including Dan Peterson, in particular, have spent a great deal of time in recent years working with Deepeeka to get them producing accurate period pieces. I have heard from some reenactors that Deepeeka is fairly responsive, and has made significant improvements. The emphasis in that process has not been on "battle-readiness", where issues of metallurgy, heat treatment, edge geometry would be discussed. Rather, the interest is in accurate appearance and assembly. That said, I understand that some of the pieces have good accuracy, and some are still sort of 'fantasy'. I recommend that you check out the following link, which will take you to the handbook for LEGIO XX, a group of Roman reenactors in the Washington, DC area. Lot's of discussions on what is good, and what is not, and why:
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/hndbk.html
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Pugios?         Reply with quote

G. Scott H. wrote:
I've developed an interest recently in the pugio. The two pugios that have caught my eye are the MRL version and the Deepeeka version that Albion sells....

Another point I would like to add, with respect to the MRL/Windlass pieces, that the reenactors complain that these are pretty uniformly inaccurate, and MRL/Windlass is non-responsive to constructive criticism. So, if you want accuracy, you probably need to go with one of the Deepeeka pieces. However, if you want a piece that you could actually cut with, you might be better off with the MRL.
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I bought the one Albion carries because Legio XX opined that it's the "only acceptable off-the-shelf dagger," though it has "minor problems "(see their pugio page here: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/pugio.html ). I'm impressed with the peice. It's very well made. It's a steal. Buy it.

PS: Notice that Legio XX does not like Deepeeka's "Royal" pugio.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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G. Scott H.




Location: Arizona, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I bought the one Albion carries because Legio XX opined that it's the "only acceptable off-the-shelf dagger," though it has "minor problems "(see their pugio page here: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/pugio.html ). I'm impressed with the peice. It's very well made. It's a steal. Buy it.

PS: Notice that Legio XX does not like Deepeeka's "Royal" pugio.


Thanks for the links, guys. Lots of good info. Happy

To Sean in particular, are the edges as blunt as Robert stated? Whichever pugio I choose, it will be primarily for decoration, but I still like the idea of being able to actually use a blade for it's intended purpose: cutting. Happy
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The edges are blunt, but it has a sharp point, which I think is, uh, the point with Roman arms. That strong central rib is to reinforce the blade for thrusting.
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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G. Scott H.




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
The edges are blunt, but it has a sharp point, which I think is, uh, the point with Roman arms. That strong central rib is to reinforce the blade for thrusting.


Point taken. Laughing Out Loud Thanks, Sean. Happy
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I bought the one Albion carries because Legio XX opined that it's the "only acceptable off-the-shelf dagger," though it has "minor problems "(see their pugio page here: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/pugio.html ). I'm impressed with the peice. It's very well made. It's a steal. Buy it.

PS: Notice that Legio XX does not like Deepeeka's "Royal" pugio.


I am confused. The page actually says "Deepeeka makes the only acceptable "off the shelf" dagger, though it has minor problems. " Happy Is that a bad joke? There is no mention of Albion on the page.

Alexi
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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:
I am confused. The page actually says "Deepeeka makes the only acceptable "off the shelf" dagger, though it has minor problems. " Happy Is that a bad joke? There is no mention of Albion on the page.

Albion carries Indian-made wares, too, often made according to their own specs.

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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:
I am confused. The page actually says "Deepeeka makes the only acceptable "off the shelf" dagger, though it has minor problems. " Happy Is that a bad joke? There is no mention of Albion on the page.


Albion sells Deepeeka's pugio, to which that page is referring.

http://www.albion-swords.com/daggers/pugio.htm

If I recall correctly, there was communication between Albion and Legio XX about their lorica as well, which Albion also carries, as well as being the impetus behind Albion making the first gen line of Roman swords.

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G. Scott H.




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interestingly enough, near the bottom of the Legio page, it says that the Deepeeka 3264E, which looks like the one Albion sells, is no longer acceptable, due to the brass accents riveted to the front of the scabbard. Eek! Whatever. WTF?! Of note, however, they are faulting the incorrectly-decorated scabbard as the "fatal flaw" (their words) rather than the pugio itself. Fortunately, I'm not quite so hardcore about rivet-for-rivet accuracy, so it still looks appealing to me. Happy
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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Deepeeka Pugio is, for better or worse, the only fairly historically-accurate pugio (despite the scabbards) on the market right now. The Paul Chen pugio looks real nice, and I'd like to handle one, but at first glance there are some obvious flaws as regards accuracy -- the fullering on the blade, and the blackened decoration of the scabbard (the original on which this pugio was based had silver-inlayed decoration, which of course would be cost-prohibitive on a budget-priced mass production item). And the MRL/WS pugios are not historically accurate at all, especially not their newest wood-gripped version.

I really wish one of the higher-quality manufacturers would make a decent-quality ACCURATE Roman pugio!

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G. Scott H.




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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2005 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Wilson wrote:
The Deepeeka Pugio is, for better or worse, the only fairly historically-accurate pugio (despite the scabbards) on the market right now. The Paul Chen pugio looks real nice, and I'd like to handle one, but at first glance there are some obvious flaws as regards accuracy -- the fullering on the blade, and the blackened decoration of the scabbard (the original on which this pugio was based had silver-inlayed decoration, which of course would be cost-prohibitive on a budget-priced mass production item). And the MRL/WS pugios are not historically accurate at all, especially not their newest wood-gripped version.

I really wish one of the higher-quality manufacturers would make a decent-quality ACCURATE Roman pugio!


Yet another item on my I'd Like to See This list: an Albion pugio that's actually made by Albion. Happy
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 09 May, 2005 6:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I should add that I don't mean to imply that the Deepeeka pugio's thick, rounded edge is correct. I have a photo of an excavated cache of pugio blades, and their edges look thin enough to take an edge. I just wanted to emphasize that this appears to be primarily a thrusting weapon (like the gladius, which also has a sharp cutting edge). If this weapon was used like most soldiers use their knives, it may have been intended as a heavy-duty, all-purpose blade.
-Sean

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PostPosted: Mon 09 May, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
If this weapon was used like most soldiers use their knives, it may have been intended as a heavy-duty, all-purpose blade.


That's always been my impression of the Pugio. Like most military knives (successful ones at least) they were probably designed primarily as a tool first and a weapon second. If a legionary was reaching for his pugio in earnest he was probably in rather deep excrement.

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