[Nathan Robinson]

[Patrick Kelly]

[David Evans]

Having finally got a chance to look at the pictures of the damge I'm forced to say that that is not damage. At least not as I would call it...

That looks to be purely the edge knocked off. Sharpen any blade and you thin that edge, hit it wrong on something, or hit something too hard for it and it will come off. Thats why sword blade change shape over the years. I have the same problem with all my chief's knifes...with my wood axes, with the adze I've used. .After use, boning meat or cutting chops, or cutting wood, I will need to sharpen the knife or axe. Once in a while I'll need to use a whet stone to re create the edge.

[George Hill]

Peter Johnsson himself replied to the topic on the other fourm. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s...post585456
It seems Lance was sent an EXTRA sharp blade, because Albion though, from past corrispondance, that this was what he wished.

Worth noting.

[Nathan Robinson]

[Patrick Kelly]

[Joel Whitmore]

Remember that when using ham's to test your sword, always use one that's precooked...that way you can have sammiches after Would spam be considered a "soft target" ?

Seriously, I think this topic has been covered thoroughly. Bone that has been dead for some time is really brittle and hard. But even in live bone or other semi-hard targets, there is always the the chance that the blade gets deflected at the last milisecond or you get an off hit. These things can damage the steel in various ways. I know it's frustrating finding cutting targets that simulate "the real thing" , but I don't feel that is necessary to learn the subtleties of your particular sword.

Joel

[Joachim Nilsson]

Didn't the original Brescia bear traces of "dented" and resharpened edges...?

Or have I gotten things all backwards again, Peter?

[Jean Thibodeau]

I just think that if you use a sword don't expect it to look unused

Buying a museum quality piece and using it as a tool you should expect it to accumulate normal wear.

If I was going to do extensive and frequent test cutting on challenging, for the sword materials, I would use a sword with all the using quality of a museum piece to learn what it can do and to become more skilled at cutting, BUT use a sword at a more modest price! Or accept from the beginning that it will accumulate damage the more it is used. At some point this starts to resemble destructive testing more than normal use.

There is a point were test cutting becomes THE activity and not just a way to learn technique or the limits of a design.
( Nothing wrong with doing this as a sport or as a way to check that one's technique works as long as one can accepts the resulting damage as normal and expected.)

With a sword meant for real fighting one might use it only for battle and use an old beater sword for practice.

Now if I could find a sword that would cut diamonds or steel i beams all day long without dulling or even showing a single scratch i would be very happy. Light sabre anyone !

[Patrick Kelly]

One thing I find interesting about this kind of issue is it's ability to illustrate how far behind the japanese arts WMA is in many ways.

In the japanese arts practitioners spend thousands of dollars on swords they fully intend to cut with. These are weapons made by acknowledged smiths, both japanese and others. It's an acknowledged fact that these swords will see wear through use, perhaps even be bent, cracked, or broken. Yet when these things occur the practitioner usually doesn't blame the manufacturer for putting out a faulty product, or for misunderstanding their needs. The reaction is usually, "Well I pooched that cut.", or "I need to improve my technique.", or "Maybe I need to re-examine what I'm doing.".

It will be nice to see Western Martial Arts evolve to this point.

[Michael Pearce]

WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! That's the sound of a dead horse being beaten. Mr.Chan reported honestly on what happened when he did certain things with his sword. He reported his conclusions based on those results. We've all weighed in and expressed ourselves. We've talked about the suitability of targets. We've talked about edge geometry. We've dissected the sword. We've dissected Mr. Chan. Now it's time to none-too-subtly insult Mr.Chan for giving us his honest opinion, question his credibility and skill etc? This forum was originally created because some one thought that they were better than that- having seen that sort of thing too much on other forums. I guess times change- and shame on us for this kind of change!

Mr.Chan bought a sword with certain expectations. It didn't meet them. We can all individually decide if Mr.Chan was being reasonable. Regardless we should be gratefull for his report and take it for what it's worth to us as individuals. IF there is an issue here it's a customer service matter between Mr.Chan and Albion- not a reason to leap to Albion's or Mr.Chan's defence or to attack either party.

The fact is this is NOT the first bad report on an Albion sword. The others have just mostly kept off the forums for fear of exactly what's being done to Mr.Chan. And SO WHAT if there's a negative review of one or two or five of the hundreds of swords produced by a maker or company? Nobody is perfect. I do not know of a single company or maker that has not had negative things said about thier swords. Truthfull negative things. Big deal- we all have our opinions on performance, esthetics and handling. No maker or company is always going to please everyone- myself, Angus Trim, Albion or A&A or whoever. That's just the way it is- deal with it. As customers it is up to us to read reviews and form our own opinions- if we're smart we won't take any single review as the gospel and make sweeping generalisations about a company or maker, but will consider it in light of our needs and the balance of other reviews of the company's products.

I did not find a single thing in Mr.Chan's original review to take issue with- things didn't get troublesome until, rather than responding to the issue, the back-and-forth began. Rather than talking about the issue the conversation shifted to insult and innuendo. That is what is really unworthy here- not the sword, not Mr.Chan..

For God's sake people, when did reviewing a sword become a crime? I have long thought that the biggest single problem with on-line reviews is that nobody is willing to be honest when a sword falls short of thier expectations. They are too afraid of getting flamed. Obviously with reason. Don't kid a kidder- flaming it is, even if 'ever-so-subtly' done. NOT.


Re-read the review. Take it for what it's worth to you. Get on with your life. Is that really so hard?

[Patrick Kelly]

Michael,

No one here is berating Lance. No one is accusing Lance of anything, and he is certainly welcome to his opinion. What everyone else is doing is offering their opinions and perspectives on the issue. No one has taken issue with Lance personally, they have simply offered their own opinions on the subject. Anyone is allowed to post their opinions, and everyone else is free to disagree as long as it's done in a civil matter. Everyone is allowed to do that here. As long as this thread remains civil, which it has until your post, it will be allowed to continue.

If there are issues with other Albion swords, or any other maker, people are welcomed to be up front and post about them. What will not be accepted is veiled innuendo and belligerent lecturing such as the comments and accusations you have just made.

Do not ever bring this kind of attitude, or make this kind of post on this forum. Do not ever bark at our readership in this manner again.

[Patrick J.]

[Patrick Kelly]

[Joe Fults]

I would like to politely suggest that this particular thread be locked. It rehashes material already covered more succinctly in other threads here, without adding much to the discussion.

[Michael Pearce]

Patrick Kelly-

First and foremost, what innuendo? I didn't use innuendo, I stated outright that other people have had compalints about swords that they wouldn't air publicly for fear of being flamed. I did make a mistake- Re-reading my post I see that I made it look like I was singling out Albion and at the time thought that the subsequent text would insure that people understood that they were not the only people that this happened to. My Apologies to the fine folks at Albion- this was not my intention. What I meant to convey was that people with complaints about prominent makers work (specifically including Angus Trim, Jim Hrisoulis, myself and Albion among others) were reluctant to voice their concerns for fear of getting flamed- and we've both been around long enough to see it happen. Remeber Gus's early review of a famous amker's sword? How that person's fans jumped all over him? You were there- you ought to remember it. Then some one said, "The test sword Angus sent us had poor edge geometry and didn't cut well," (This was a post from a HACA group right after Gus started out as an independant swordmaker.) Even though they were right, out came the flame-throwers as Gus's friends and supporterrs attacked. We've seen similar incidents involving prominent makers on any number of forums. I'm tired of it- that's why I 'barked.'

I thought that my previous post on this topic was quite well-balanced. I am on record on this forum as having been quite impressed with the Albion swords that I saw at Blade Show 2004 and the Vegas Classic this january- I have also asked the good folks at Albion for material to include in a book about modern medieval sword reproductions- which I believe they belong in as one of the pre-eminent makers of reproduction medieval swords in the world today. The few- VERY FEW issues with thier work that people have brought to my attention I have not- and will not- post about publicly. Instead I told the Albion folks privately when I saw them so that they could examine the issue and determine for themselves whether the issue was valid and wether they needed to do something different. Lest you misinterpret me- I like the swords of Albion's that I have personally examined at Blade Show and the Vegas Classic. I think they were great, and I unreservedly complement them on those swords. Thier people have been friendly, helpfull and informative when we have met in person- even when a former employee had caused some tension- and for the most part I like them personally.

As for 'Barking at your readership' I'll go to any forum that I please and 'bark at them' if I feel that they were in the wrong.. That's 'Freedom of Speech.' If they don't like it they can ban me- that's 'Freedom of Association.'

[Patrick Kelly]

[Michael Pearce]

Fair enough Patrick- Hopefully I won't feel the need to 'bark' again. If I do I've been fairly warned, and I'll do it knowing that I will be banned. I have to admit that part of what got my back up was that up to a point I felt that the exchange had been so civilised. When I saw what I perceived as pettiness creeping in I thought, 'Oh no- it's been going so well... now this.' So I blew up. If forumites undeserving of approbation were offended by my post, I sincerely apologize. From here out I'll mind my manners or get banned.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Firstly I do hope that Lancelot has not been upset by any of MY remarks and although the discussion has become tired at this point I have found the views expressed interesting and useful in examining our expectations.

Personnally I find it difficult to critizise a basically great sword because of a few small and minor flaws I might perceive when I have a good relationship with the makers: I really worry about hurting the makers feelings, so I appreciate the reviews here that will mention negatives as well as positive features. This actually makes the good comments more credible and useful than undeserved universal praise.

It is actually useful to know that the makers are not over sensitive about honest critizism and may use it as quality control input.

But critizism is and must be open to discussion and differences of opinion. ( Without taking it personally ! )

Anyway must stop now as I am becoming " preachy " here and don't want this post to get anyone upset

[George Hill]

OK, Feel free to pick what I'm about to say apart, I have a theory, and part of the scientific process is to find flaws in ideas.

I have a theory on "What happened to Lance's blade."


Now, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, the big half centimeter chip came out of the blade when he was swinging at a pork leg that had been thrown at him. Correct?

He hit it, the blade went in a little, and then the pork leg fell the other way to the ground.



We know bones harden after death, even so, I think what happened was this. NO OFFENCE TO LANCE!

Lance smacked the pork leg, but not hard enough to cut it in two, since he didn't really have enough resistance to chop it in two. When he hit it, his blade embedded slightly in the bone. The bone 'stopped' in the air, and then started moving the other direction, and at some point in this, it twisted.

When the pork, and of course the bone that lance had 'just' penetrated, twisted, it was like putting a tiny bit of the blade in a vice, and then twisting the blade.

I 'suspect' things would have been differnt if he had say, hung up a whole pig and chopped it in two, since the blade would be moving through the whole, and would have split anything in it's path, rather then getting a bone on just the edge, and then twisting it away.

Since Lance actually wound up with an EXTRA sharp blade, (as Albion beleived that's what he truely wanted,) his sword was extra vunerable to this sort of thing.

What do you guys think?