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Angus Trim
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 Posted: Sun 05 Jun, 2005 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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William,
Have you checked with Howard Wadell on this? Despite his and my celebrated difference a couple of years ago, I can tell you that I found Howy to be a really reasonable type guy when I dealt with him {right up to where we both got so hot that talking wasn't going to happen anymore}.
As I'm sure you're aware, a Tinkerblades, and an Atrim recently were reviewed, with a deer carcass as the target medium. Both blades had a "fine" edge on them......
So my thought is, that its just possible that the edge on that sword is too fine for the type of sword. Depends on the condition of the bone I suppose.......
But, all things considered, it wouldn't surprise me that Howy would have the sword repaired without charge..... then if he felt that bone was too abusive, he'd let it be known that bone was not an acceptable target for Albion swords......
Two years ago, during an ARMA cutting thingie, an AT XIIIa with an extremely fine edge, had some edge damage after being slammed into a helmet on a pole a few times. I repaired the damage to that without charge, though the gentleman who owned the sword shipped here on his dime. Afterwards, I let it be known how I feel about the stupidity of slamming a sharp sword into helmets on poles.......
Anyways, it probably wouldn't hurt to talk to Howy. He and Amy are the last words at Albion, and like I said, he really is a reasonable sort........
swords are fun
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 05 Jun, 2005 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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A "fresh" chunk of Bambi? Was it killed within the hour and then used as a testing medium? If not it probably wasn't too "fresh". One thing to remember is that bone has been used from time to time as body armor in various cultures. If it was as soft as Charmin that wouldn't happen.
Honestly folks, while I think this thread has been a valuable discussion overall, and while I'm pretty impressed with the way most of the participants have handled themselves, it seems to be in danger of chasing it's own tail. I had really hoped that it would have died a natural death by the time I finished with the Blade Show, as I don't think anything new is going to be introduced at this point.
The only things we can say for certain at this point is that Lance Chan is getting a replacement sword and hopefully he'll be satisfied with that one. We've also established the fact that there are far too many variables involved in amateur testing to be able to reach a definitive opinion on an entire product line. Nor should we use an older product that has been replaced by improved models as a yard stick of severity for newer models. We should also be willing to define our own needs and thereby choose a proper tool to fit those requirements instead of blindly using a given tool's price tag as a gauge of ultimate indestructability.
I think it's time to let this horse release it's tail and graze in the pasture.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Sun 05 Jun, 2005 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Albions website says "Each sword design is subjected to grueling destructive testing periodically to ensure that it meets the high performance standard of the Albion Mark™ Line. "
Albion has maintained a very aggressive and impressive pace of new model introductions. We've all been very demanding that they go even faster. Now that these experiences have come to light, they will continue to be discussed, either here or elsewhere. This may provide a momentary pause in the clamor. Perhaps it would be a good opportunity for Albion to do some of their periodic destructive testing, just to make sure things are as they want them to be.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Hi Lance,
The page you link is referencing cold working vs casting and the example given is copper.
Whether forged or cast, I would believe the pommels of period swords would not have been heat treated like a blade. Were any cold worked after the initial shape was produced? I don't know. I do know hot metal pounds easier than cold.
The pommels of Gus' and Tinker's stuff may be tougher/harder but they are still softer than blade hardness (I would think). Gus used to use stainless in the old days.
Cheers
GC
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | ...Now that these experiences have come to light, they will continue to be discussed, either here or elsewhere. This may provide a momentary pause in the clamor. Perhaps it would be a good opportunity for Albion to do some of their periodic destructive testing, just to make sure things are as they want them to be. |
Why do you assume this is not the case?
Destructive testing is a natural part of production to make sure swords hold up to intended levels.
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| Glen A Cleeton wrote: |
The pommels of Gus' and Tinker's stuff may be tougher/harder but they are still softer than blade hardness (I would think). Gus used to use stainless in the old days.
Cheers
GC |
Hi Glen
Yes, I used to use 303 stainless because it wouldn't rust, and was stronger than 1018. Today I use 1018 for the guards, as its easy to work, and easily as strong as "period" materials. I use 1143 for pommels, as it finishes nicer than 1018, and at roughly 30rc is more durable than many period pommels would be. Still, its not indestructabe.......
No, the fittings do not approach blade hardness, 51 to 53 rc for the blades.....
swords are fun
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
Location: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 717
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | ...Now that these experiences have come to light, they will continue to be discussed, either here or elsewhere. This may provide a momentary pause in the clamor. Perhaps it would be a good opportunity for Albion to do some of their periodic destructive testing, just to make sure things are as they want them to be. |
I am putting this up at the risk of even more discussion, but for those patient enough to download the file, here is video of a recent destructive test with a viking blade done at the end of May.
The blade performed admirably and as you can see, did not break until it had been bent each way a few times and then bent into a hoop both ways. The edge (unsharpened) did a number on the barrel with nothing but a little red paint to show for it. Admitedly, this isn't dead bone, but the rolled edge of a steel barrel is pretty hard.
http://albion-swords.com/images/video/dstruct-5-31-05.avi
Draw your own conclusions, of course, but we are quite happy with the results.
Best,
Howy
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Joe Fults wrote: | | ...Now that these experiences have come to light, they will continue to be discussed, either here or elsewhere. This may provide a momentary pause in the clamor. Perhaps it would be a good opportunity for Albion to do some of their periodic destructive testing, just to make sure things are as they want them to be. |
Why do you assume this is not the case?
Destructive testing is a natural part of production to make sure swords hold up to intended levels. |
I'm not assuming anything, but in the past I could find some links at Albion that examined results.
I can't find them anymore.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | A "fresh" chunk of Bambi? Was it killed within the hour and then used as a testing medium? If not it probably wasn't too "fresh". One thing to remember is that bone has been used from time to time as body armor in various cultures. If it was as soft as Charmin that wouldn't happen.
Honestly folks, while I think this thread has been a valuable discussion overall, and while I'm pretty impressed with the way most of the participants have handled themselves, it seems to be in danger of chasing it's own tail. I had really hoped that it would have died a natural death by the time I finished with the Blade Show, as I don't think anything new is going to be introduced at this point.
The only things we can say for certain at this point is that Lance Chan is getting a replacement sword and hopefully he'll be satisfied with that one. We've also established the fact that there are far too many variables involved in amateur testing to be able to reach a definitive opinion on an entire product line. Nor should we use an older product that has been replaced by improved models as a yard stick of severity for newer models. We should also be willing to define our own needs and thereby choose a proper tool to fit those requirements instead of blindly using a given tool's price tag as a gauge of ultimate indestructability.
I think it's time to let this horse release it's tail and graze in the pasture. |
HI Patrick
Its very seldom these days that I want to disagree with you in public. But as tiring as these kinds of issues are sometimes, I think this one is a bit different. I'm not really seeing a condemnation of a product here, unless its too subtle for me.....
It looks to me that more and more folks are questioning just what one can expect from a sword..... And maybe, just what is the difference between a "high performance" sword, and a "historically accurate" sword........
It was only a couple of years ago, that there was a couple of celebrated incidents which featured swords slamming into helmets on poles. One was a sharp XIIIa where the edge sustained some damage. The next incident was a test where two swords broke on a helmet on a pole.......Despite the political implications of those two incidents, the end result was that reasonable and realistic sword enthusiasts and swordsmen realized that striking a helmet on a pole with a properly designed real sword wasn't only stupid, it was ahistorical {meaning there was no historical justification for it}.
Since then, we've got new swords on the market, and they've been talked up as "historically accurate", and "high perfomance". At the same time, the rest of the market also has improved......
However, last year, there were no cutting incidents that created questions in the minds of the public. But there were more and more new swords, highly touted for their historical accuracy and performance.......
Now we have had a couple of incidents, and questions raised. In this case, unlike the past case, the questions asked were by fans of the maker of the swords in question. And we have targets that are not as abusive as unresisting plate armor.
It looks to me, that folks are more interested in finding out what the realistic limitations of a historically accurate blade geometry should be, whether the maker is Albion, Atrim, A&A, Cashen, Tinker, Lundemo, ArmArt, Cervenka, etc.......
As it stands, going back to the incidents two years ago, I tend to make more durable edges than before, unless the specific model of sword should have a real fine edge, or unless a customer requires a really fine edge from me. If they ask for a finer edge than ussual, I ussually discuss it with them, because a finer edge will not hold up as well as a standard edge {just speaking for AT}. I also designed a couple of specific models for those that felt slamming a helmet on a pole should be done once in a while.......
So, as a maker, I'm interested in how this goes, simply because like the earlier incidents, much of the market's expectations of what a sword should do will be focussed one direction or another. If its determined that fresh bone is too tough a target, for instance, for a sword, that pool noodles should be the target of choice, then I would likely design something to move towards this new market trend. If a reasonable sized bone, like Lance' pork shoulders, is considered a reasonable target for some swords, then I'll probably continue down the path I've gone over the last two years. You see, there's "historically accurate", and "historically accurate". For instance, I feel that my blade geometries, the way I balance the swords harmonically and dynamically, the way I do the edges, and the way the swords handle and perform, is historically accurate. But, there is so much room, because there is so much diversity in what period swords were like, that there's room to adjust to the market......
Thus, I feel this conversation has merit. Folks are being real cautious, which is a good thing, but I believe that there are a lot of questions on a lot of minds. And I for one want to see which direction the wind blows when all is said and done, so I can guide my little sword manufacturing company accordingly.......
swords are fun
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Howry,
Thank you for posting that clip.
On the old site I remember seeing some in-house test results, I could not find them on the new site. On the old site, the posted testing was with a Tritonia and was more rigerous than any I could do, but it seemed to get lost in the site renovation.
Again, thank you.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Mon 06 Jun, 2005 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
Location: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 717
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Joe Leung
Location: Hong Kong Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Lancelot Chan wrote: | As I mentioned before the fittings on the Spadona are relatively softer than those on atrim and tinker. PJ explained that the material used was almost period like. However, would this manufacturing process led to the difference I've experienced in them?
http://bladefittings.com/metalsandcon/WorkHardening.htm
Would the original swords' fittings be work hardened or cast? |
Hello Lance,
Work hardening doesn't work much in steel as there is "carbon" in the iron structure that already make the steel "hardenable" with quenching (freezing the high temperature structure). Work hardening actually creates grain- boundaries which will stop the sliding between layers of the lattice structure within the metal. Soft steel still work-hardens but it will get to the fatique point very soon.
If the fitting are casted...... the easiest way to remove it from the investment mould is to drop it in cold water while it is hot.....the investment materials will break and the piece be recovered easily. In that way, I think the surface of the piece will be hardened a little bit.
If the fittings are forged......even when it is not quench (air cooled), again the hardness of the surface will be different as there will be a cooling gradient across the thickness of the piece.......unless it is intentionally cooled in say, a bucket of heated up sand (annealling) in a controlled way.
If the fittings are machined from dead soft steel, provided that the steel is not heated up too much(no matter how much carbon is in the steel), then it can retain the softness even after the whole manufacturing process.
Joe
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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Allen W
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Howie, the viking and castellan blades look rather rough as they aren't polished. Were they honed into your usual finished edge?
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Just a quick note for clarification on the last couple of posts I made.
When I was looking for the destructive testing stuff at Albion's website, I was having some problems with several links on the Albion site. I'm sure that was on my end. Regardless, I can get to all of the stuff from the links recently posted in this thread.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
Location: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 717
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Allen W wrote: | | Howie, the viking and castellan blades look rather rough as they aren't polished. Were they honed into your usual finished edge? |
I stand corrected on the Viking (my earlier post) by the guys who did the testing --both swords were sharpened, even though they were not taken to our final matte finish (no point in doing all of that to destroy them.)
Best,
Howy
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject: Summary of what I think I've learned from this discussion |
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Sword and swordsman are integral parts of a whole system (I already knew this but these discussions have helped refresh the topic for me).
Problems with either can affect the performance of the aggregate system (knew this but again refreshed).
I must select the tool I use wisely as different tools are constructed with different intents, and not all are ideal for a student.
Accept that my tool may be damaged as I learn, and accept that my skill or lack thereof may be the cause of the damage (not a stretch for me).
If I want to keep something pristine, I should learn with something I can accept wearing out.
Finally, to apply something I learned long ago when I spent most of my time skiing. Make sure I understand the limits of the tool I'm using and its intended purpose. Then make sure I can afford to destroy that tool before I decide to push the tool to its limits or beyond. That way I can celebrate knowing its limits, and my own, without lamenting the loss of the tool if I damage it
PS - I know this is a bit of a silly post, but this thread and its brethern have inspired a good deal of reflection on my part. Its also helped me reassess some of the preconceptions I brought to the discussion. This, in my limited experience, is always something good.
PSS - I'm still waiting fondly for the first Earl to ship, since its mine. However, I realize my plan of using it for a practice tool was misguided because I don't want to wear it out. I will be better served using something from the Squire or Maestro Line, assuming they will be more tolerant of my inevitable mistakes, or something else at a price point such that I will not regret damaging it. Not due to any specifc product limits, rather due to some serious skill limits I bring to the equation.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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William J Welch
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Alexi Goranov posted yesterday,
"Just to be fair, "fresh" in your case means a leg frozen for a while, and then left to thaw for 2 days before the cutting. while it might have been completely thawed out, I personally think that this is not what "fresh" means.
This goes into the discussion above about what happens to bones of dead animals."
Patrick Kelly posted
"A "fresh" chunk of Bambi? Was it killed within the hour and then used as a testing medium? If not it probably wasn't too "fresh". One thing to remember is that bone has been used from time to time as body armor in various cultures. If it was as soft as Charmin that wouldn't happen. "
Well David Welch(my brother) has spent a great deal of time talking to the Anthropological Facility(A.K.A, the body farm) at Ut, which if everyone does not know is the Very tip top of the Human Body decomposition testing Facility, where they actually take human cadavers and bury them in various places to test what happens to flesh and bone over different periods of time.
According to them unless a bone is allowed to DRY OUT, and is not kept moist, then whether it is frozen, thawed, 1 day old or years old, it makes no difference. As long as a piece of meat and bone is in edible condition it makes no difference as to the it being Alive or dead.
So as to bone being used as armour thats true and it is hard as can be, but only when dried out.
William J Welch
Brotherhood of St Luke.
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Thomas Jason
Location: New Joisey Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 230
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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That would pretty much mean having a continuous supply of blood or being immersed in water.
Otherwise it will dry out as moisture is leeched out of it by the tissue.
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