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William J Welch




Location: knoxville, tn
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
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Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I dont think that at all, next time you get a steak out of your freezer, look at the bone. Unless you have put it in your freezer uncovered chances are it will not be dessicated.
William J Welch

Brotherhood of St Luke.
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William J Welch




Location: knoxville, tn
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Jason wrote:
That would pretty much mean having a continuous supply of blood or being immersed in water.

Otherwise it will dry out as moisture is leeched out of it by the tissue.


From a post on a different forum:

After recent test cutting incidents, I read in reply on several forums that almost immediately after death bone starts to "harden". This supposedly makes any cutting done on post-mortem bone not only a recipe guaranteed to damage your sword but so far out of scope of historical use that the results would have had no useful meaning.

However, the only "proof" offered for this idea was anecdotal and followed the line of "since we know that happens... let's try to come up with an explanation of why it happens." But nothing on IF it even happens at all.

Being more than a little interested in this, I have spent the day off and on talking with researchers from the Forensic Anthropology Center at The University of Tennessee Knoxville. This is the place that has Dr. Bass's famed "body farm".

I am going to continue an email discussion with them on the most accurate medium and practice for test cutting to help get us the best info possible. However, these are the facts as I understand them so far...

1) Bone is hard.

2) Pigs are probably the best test medium we can use. They are in fact the next best thing to using an actual human cadaver.

3) There is no discernable hardening of "wet" bone encased in flesh after death.

4) The post-mortem "hardening" in the bones of a animal from a grocery store would be so small as to be insignificant, with the possible exception of a fraction of an inch at an exposed end.

5) Normal freezing and thawing should not effect bone hardness.

6) Bone hardening starts when it is naked, as happens through decay, contacts the air, and begins drying.

All in all, the consensus was that if it is fresh enough to eat... it represents living bone well enough to be used as a 1:1 equivalent for any experimentation we would do on it.

William J Welch

Brotherhood of St Luke.
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 4:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All good points Gus and I agree with you. As long as this thread concentrates on issues of realistic expectations, edge geometry, and etc. it has value.

On the other hand, it serves no purpose to continually dredge up old occurrences, past issues and politics.

Please concentrate on the former and leave off on the later.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Shane Allee
Industry Professional



Location: South Bend, IN
Joined: 29 Aug 2003

Posts: 506

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are my thoughts....

Doesn't seem anyone has been able to site sources either way, all we seem to have is hear say in all different directions. Some say it does, other say it doesn't, some say it doesn't but gets more dense which I would at least think would make it hard to cut. Then I realize that it really doesn't matter to me me one way or the other to me or the swords I make.

No way do I want someone cutting living bone and tissue with one of my sword. As far as cutting any bone, my opinion is that historically swords probably took edge damage from cutting into bone and I wouldn't expect any difference in modern blade with the same type of characteristics. Is that say that every time a sword blade comes into contact with bone that there will be some type of edge damage, no at all. There are too many factors involved though for cutting meat with bone to expect there not to be any edge damage. So for me this cutting medium isn't one that I would repair any damage from without charge.

As far as the hardness of fittings go, there are plenty of examples of cast fittings used historically. Something else to consider is any of the hilt decorations we see historically that are clad in gold, silver, and inset with precious stones are going to be much more fragile than modern cast steel fittings. Another aspect to think about with any of the decoration technics applied to fittings, is would you really want to do it with hardened steel fittings? Even if they had slave labor, they probably didn't want to do it that way either.

It is really all too common it seems for people to buy a sword and just expect that it will meet their needs, without really learning some of the more detailed requirements they have. Then of course they learn about it only after it fails to meet their needs. How any times has we heard about Albion, Gus, and Arms and Armor exchanging a sword because the owner could cut with it, resharpening, dulling, cleaning up, etc swords when they really didn't have too. Things like this can be avoided if the customer knows what they need and clearly expresses it. They are developing lines of swords for wide groups of people, they make them to do everything from zip though pool noodles to bash armour. It is really the customers person responsibility to make sure their needs will be met. These guys are pretty good about making everyone happy in the end, but they should be taken advantage of either. Even if they don't charge for things a lot of the time, it is still time and money being used up. Something to think about....

Shane
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William J Welch




Location: knoxville, tn
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 6:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

shane posted
"Doesn't seem anyone has been able to site sources either way, all we seem to have is hear say in all different directions. Some say it does, other say it doesn't, some say it doesn't but gets more dense which I would at least think would make it hard to cut."

I did cite sources, if you can find a more reliable one I will believe it : )

"Being more than a little interested in this, I have spent the day off and on talking with researchers from the Forensic Anthropology Center at The University of Tennessee Knoxville. This is the place that has Dr. Bass's famed "body farm"."

phone number is 865-974-1000 ask for the Forensic Anthropology Center.

shane also posted
"It is really all too common it seems for people to buy a sword and just expect that it will meet their needs, without really learning some of the more detailed requirements they have."

I did that is why I purchased a Crecy War Sword,
From the Albion web site:


Crecy was one of the most decisive battles of the 100 Years War. After the battle of Sluys, Edward III landed in Normandy in July 1346 with about 10,000 men. The French pursued. Edward III decided to halt near Crecy in Normandy and to prepare for battle the next day.

However, the French vanguard made contact and started to attack without the benefit of a plan. The French made as many as 15 attacks and the English checked each one in turn, primarily thanks to the English longbowmen. In the end, the French were decimated and the English had a decisive victory.

The Crecy is one type of sword that would have seen service on both sides during the 100 Years War.

Oakeshott describes the Type XVIa as having a long, tapering blade, broad at the hilt, with a sharp, often reinforced, point.

The Crecy is a fine example of a later period epee de guerre, or war sword, a refinement of the earlier XIIa in response to changes in the armour of the period.

It is wrong to make generalized assumptions of a person, without first knowing who you are talking about .

William J Welch

Brotherhood of St Luke.


Last edited by William J Welch on Mon 06 Jun, 2005 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William J Welch wrote:

I did that is why I purchased a Crecy War Sword,
From the Albion web site:
http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextge...cy-xvi.htm


William,
That's the Next Gen Crecy that you've linked to, which is not in production yet. Yours, which is the one whose edge is in question, is a First Gen, correct?

There are differences in edge geometry between the First and Next Gen's. It's kind of an apples-to-oranges comparison.

The First Gen is a very different sword from the Next Gen version.

Happy

ChadA

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William J Welch




Location: knoxville, tn
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yea, the link to my shagrin, is to the new one but, I had compaired the two texts at the time of purchase and they were the same.
William J Welch

Brotherhood of St Luke.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 7:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William J Welch wrote:
Yea, the link to my shagrin, is to the new one but, I had compaired the two texts at the time of purchase and they were the same.


The text is probably borrowed from the First Gen page (at least the part about the battle). Having seen the NG Crecy in Atlanta this weekend and Nathan's pics of the old one, they are very, very different swords. The First Gens were designed by Albion and Randal Graham. The Next Gens are based off of Peter Johnsson's research and what was learned from the First Gen's.

Happy

ChadA

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William J Welch




Location: knoxville, tn
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The first gen. was classified as a Great/war sword of XIIIa and Warswords are generally hand and a half swords, used for war, in the 12th thru 14th centuries.
William J Welch

Brotherhood of St Luke.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 7:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William J Welch wrote:
The first gen. was classified as a Great/war sword of XIIIa and Warswords are generally hand and a half swords, used for war, in the 12th thru 14th centuries.


You are correct. The original Crecy was somewhere in between a XIIIa and XVIa. The Next Gen is pure XVIa.

They're two very different swords, so any comparison is largely moot. Even trying to compare the edge on that sword to Albion's current offerings is probably a big stretch.

This line of discussion (Crecy vs. Crecy) is pretty off-topic for this thread, so I'd prefer for things to steer back to the original topic.

Happy

ChadA

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Shane Allee
Industry Professional



Location: South Bend, IN
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Posts: 506

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun, 2005 9:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah Dude, no one has cited any sources in this entire thread. You talked with some guys who are in a field that might be related to the discussion that happened to give you their opinions. There is no proper citation, no interview, and we really have no idea what formal research they have and haven't conducted.

As far as taking my own time to waste their's on something I said doesn't really affect me considering my stance of the use of bone as a cutting medium, is kind of pointless isn't it?

I don't see why you think I singled you out for saying that I didn't think you did your research, I didn't. Although what you mentioned wasn't even close to what I was getting at, there is much more to a sword than it's typology and intended use. Edge geometry and hardness have been the two major points in this post, but there are other factors as well. The idea isn't even a knock at sword customers, it was just an attempt to put things into perspective for people. These companies can't spend a couple hours on the phone with each customer making sure that their sword will fit their needs. If customers take the initiative to do this everyone benefits, most of all them. If not, then everyone will probably pay a little bit more in the end.

I could have ranted, continued the argument, or even analyzed what people have said, to what point though? I realized that it didn't matter one way or the other to my position, so I just stated my opinion.

Shane
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