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Joachim Elsander
Location: Sweden Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 20
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 Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: What kind of hilt is this? |
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I found this sword/dagegr on a Swedish auction site:
http://www.tradera.com/auction/auction.asp?aid=14978051
But I have never seen a hilt like this on a sword, there is no pommel.
(Looks more like the hilt of a knife)
But the blade looks decent with a fuller.
The sword is short, just 51cm
Any info?
Thank you!
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Allen Johnson
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 4:32 am Post subject: |
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looks like a type of bayonet...
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Well It looked like a small messer. I would agree with the bayonet, but it lacked mounts for a rifle and the pommel end was not tapered for a pulg style mount. So I would have to go with messer hilt style but not sure on the clasification.
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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Joachim Elsander
Location: Sweden Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your help!
Yes, I was also thinking in the line of bayonet, but a modified one as there is nowhere to attach a rifle.
But I have not seen a bayo with a blade like that. (But my experience is limited)
And the double-edged blade looks very ”swordish” to me.
Thanks again!
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Coooooould be a rehilted midshipmans dirk....or a broken sword blade rehilted as a dagger. The handle with the rivets just 'don't go' with the blade. It's cool though.......I like it. It would be hella tough in a hassel. My 2 cents.......mcm.
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David Lindberg
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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I must suggest that it is a bayonette. It just doesn't have a structure that would suggest it might be/have been a dirk. There are a huge variety of large knife/sword bayonettes. You find most of them toward the end of the 19th century, as I recall. This could easily have been one of these modified slightly, or with a replaced guard. As much as I might like to hope for a treasure, I don't think this is much more than that.
Feel free to prove me wrong though.
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Joachim Elsander
Location: Sweden Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jun, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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True David, probably not a treasure. (But maybe an interesting little sword/dagger non the less)
I wrote the seller and asked him about the ”sword”
He said it was old (I Know that can mean anything from ten to hundreds of year)
from an ”Old estate”. He knows nothing about its origin. The blade is not especially sharp
and the guillions are a little loose, everything else is tight. No damage to the blade except some dirt and a little rust.
We are thinking in the line of bayonet, and there are so many of them. But I am fairly sure it is not a Swedish one.
But that doesn’t mean much.
He sells a bayonet from the same estate:
http://www.tradera.com/auction/aid_14976878
But that is an entirely different model.
If the “sword” stays cheap, maybe I buy it just for fun.
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Joachim Elsander
Location: Sweden Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well It looked like a small messer. |
Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but what kind of a edge weapon is a messer?
What’s the difference between a dagger/short sword and a messer?
If this has been covered before, I ask your forgiveness and maybe somebody could
lead me to some good thread/threads
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Sean Flynt
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2005 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Joachim Elsander wrote: | | Quote: | | Well It looked like a small messer. |
Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but what kind of a edge weapon is a messer?
What’s the difference between a dagger/short sword and a messer?
If this has been covered before, I ask your forgiveness and maybe somebody could
lead me to some good thread/threads |
Also, take a look here http://www.myArmoury.com/review_cs_mess.html . The messer, especially as interpreted by Cold Steel, does remind me of a huge, oversized bayonet, primarily in the hilt area (which is what I think Alex was referring to).  
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Joachim Elsander
Location: Sweden Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2005 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Great! Thank you, both of you!
This place is really educational!
The question is could this thing I found pass for a messer?
/Joachim
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| G. Scott H. wrote: | | (which is what I think Alex was referring to). |
Yes, I am far from an expert of anything, but I got that vibe with this piece. But as I said, I don't know. The blade dosent look right to me for one, but the hilt screams german to me. I am sure someone here knows more though, just give it a little time.
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Joachim Elsander wrote: | Great! Thank you, both of you!
This place is really educational!
The question is could this thing I found pass for a messer?
/Joachim |
No. Sorry if we mislead you. Alex and I (if I may speak for him in this instance, if not, sorry, Alex ) were merely pointing out that the grip on this knife/dagger is very reminiscent of a messer type hilt. This isn't to say that there haven't been other styles of sword/knife that have a similar construction, it's just that the messer was the first to come to mind. A true messer or grosse messer is a full-size sword, while this item is more dagger sized. One of the notable features of the messer is it's straight, full tang with relatively flat wood slabs riveted on either side, this is why the messer comparison was made (and I will admit that I am NOT an expert either. Not even close.).
Really, this dagger could be anything, from a shortened sword blade to a rehilted naval dirk, to a rehilted bayonet, to just a freaky one of a kind dagger made by some unknown smith. In any case, whatever it is, I agree that it's very cool. My advice would be to go ahead and buy it if you like it and the price is agreeable. Perphaps somebody will be able to tell you exactly what it is at some point, but then again, you may never know for sure. It would certainly make a good "conversation piece".
If you do buy it, please (if you can) post some more pics of it. I'd like to see it from a few different angles. It could be a "treasure", or it could be just an odd old blade without any discernable value. Either way, if you like it, who cares? It certainly looks very tough, and it looks like it would be a fun and unique piece to own.
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2005 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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 exactly
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Fri 10 Jun, 2005 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Alex Oster wrote: | | exactly |
 
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Fri 10 Jun, 2005 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, then, do we have anyone who speaks swedish who can get more info from the website or auction house?
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
Last edited by Alex Oster on Fri 10 Jun, 2005 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Joachim Elsander
Location: Sweden Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sat 11 Jun, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Hi again!
I bought the piece for $54. I will son see if it is worth the money
As soon as it arrives I will post more detailed photos.
As for the swedish auctions site www.tradera.com is has a little English flag that is supposed to
translate some of the information to English.
Most sellers accept international bidders, and you could see a few good swords there at times.
For example these Swedish sabers:
http://www.tradera.com/auction/aid_15170706
http://www.tradera.com/auction/aid_15003131
Cheers
Joachim
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Sun 12 Jun, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Joachim,
It appears to be the forward section of an US. M1913 Patton saber.
My bookmarks are a mess but there is an article out there describing these. Some were theater made (individual effort). Here is another that was ground out a little further from the point.
http://www.jbrucevoyles.com/Auction%2023/DCP_1235.JPG
There was a company, I believe it was in California, that cut three daggers from each saber. One each from the point, middle and rear of the blade. They are uncommon enough to be unfamiliar.
I don't know if you posted this to the Bernard Levine forum at KF or BF. I'm not sure if it is his article I'm remembering. I'll poke around some more. Yours was probably homemade but I can't be sure of that.
Cheers
GC
Here is the page I was thinking of. Scroll down to the M1913 article and the reference to The Anderson Stiletto is there.
http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/reject_articles.htm
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This is a standard topic