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Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jan, 2007 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Salut Jean,
now there's a meal someone can sink his teeth into, I like my boiled langue de boeuf with strong mustard... but with yours maybe there are no teeth left at the end ?
I also enjoy polearms, and your collaboration with Craig has certainly added something to talk about in the circle of polearm afficianadoes.
Bonne année à toi et aux cousins de la Louisiane.
Jean-Carle

Bon coeur et bon bras
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J. Bedell




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jan, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice Jean!!! I'm impressed, I have never even heard of this before but now I'm very intrigued!

You seem to be getting your fair share of custom projects Big Grin Laughing Out Loud

-James

The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jan, 2007 4:08 pm    Post subject: Langue de Boeuf         Reply with quote

J. Bedell wrote:
Very nice Jean!!! I'm impressed, I have never even heard of this before but now I'm very intrigued!

You seem to be getting your fair share of custom projects Big Grin Laughing Out Loud

-James


Hi James

These are a bit rare as far as pole arms go and often the ones illustrated are very common in work and style. Kind of flat in appearence. Jean wanted to take the shape but using hollow grinding and bevels create a more refined and dramatic look. Something for the upscale man at arms Happy

Best
Craig
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jan, 2007 9:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
Salut Jean,
now there's a meal someone can sink his teeth into, I like my boiled langue de boeuf with strong mustard... but with yours maybe there are no teeth left at the end ?
I also enjoy polearms, and your collaboration with Craig has certainly added something to talk about in the circle of polearm afficianadoes.
Bonne année à toi et aux cousins de la Louisiane.
Jean-Carle


Actually boiled tongue is quite tasty hot and makes great sandwiches cold either hot mustard or a dab of mayonnaise. Big Grin

Oh, the soup with big chunks of tongue in it is also good. ( My Mom used to make it once in a while when I was a kid, unfortunately she is a little too old and fragile to do any " real " cooking. ) ( Do you know of any restaurant that has tongue on their menu ? Would love to know of one. Laughing Out Loud )

And " Bonne année aussi ".

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jan, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Bedell wrote:
Very nice Jean!!! I'm impressed, I have never even heard of this before but now I'm very intrigued!

You seem to be getting your fair share of custom projects Big Grin Laughing Out Loud

-James


Since this Topic is up to many many pages I fairly sure that if you go back to the beginning and read all the post you will find some pics of some historical ones as well as the original Photoshop concept drawings.

The design wasn't meant to be 100% historical but at least historically plausible with the main emphasis on making a good design and I think Craig has improved on my drawings as far as function and good design choices as well as aesthetics.

I have some ideas about these very good design changes from my original drawings that I will keep for my comments when I have it in hand: Very good structural design / function / robustness etc .... Just want to keep all the good stuff in one long post rather than giving out impressions in small chunks. Wink Laughing Out Loud

Well I also have a custom Rondel that Craig will be working on. Wink Big Grin

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jan, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, just got an e-mail from Craig and the L de B is in transit and the nail biting and compulsive clicking the shipping tracking number starts now. Eek! Big Grin

Oh, I'm also getting my Iberian Mace, my Javelin and " surprise " Big Grin Craig is sending me an extra Javelin for free. ( Very nice of him and very well appreciated and I e-mailed him back that " No good deed goes unpunished and I'm telling everyone about the nice surprise " ..... very Cool and many thanks Craig. Big Grin ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Jan, 2007 6:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excellent, Jean! I am sure you will let us know when your new babies arrive. Please beg, borrow or steal a digital camera and post us some pictures!
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Langue de Boeuf just arrived as well as two Javelins and the Iberian mace.

Just opened the package and everything came out fine: No dings or rust. I notice at 6:50 a.m. that the package was due to be delivered today, " in the truck for delivery " : So I stayed up hoping it wouldn't arrive very late or only tomorrow.

Well, I'm going to go to bed now until early evening since I'm getting very blurry eyed ........ LOL.

I will post a my impressions soon and add the pics and close-ups of the pics that Craig sent me. I will probably do a separate
topic for the javelins and the Iberian mace ( The Iberian mace is a sleeper as it's much more interesting in hand than it looks on the A & A site pics. )

Details later but I'm very pleased with the design choices Craig made when adapting my design.

Handling seems very very agile: That means good. Big Grin Even just getting it out of the packaging and just casually moving it around it feels very good ......... again details later. ( Some time before the end of the weekend I think. )

Now to bed before I fall off my chair as I go into a deep coma. Razz Laughing Out Loud

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 4:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well Craig at A & A did a great job with bevels and hollow grinding with my Langue de Boeuf that looked really " Beefy " in early production pics: The finished product is actually very lively in handling. ( More on that during the weekend or early next week. )

If one looks at the roughed out shape on the L de B Topic thread you can see what I mean. Wink So if that monster turned out to be useable and not a boat anchor maybe I'm not completely " crazy ". ( Helps a lot to leave the small detail of making it work to a talented expert maker. )

Still too tired to get into all the details and in fact playing with a few days will probably give me more good things to say about it. I have to weight it find the point of balance etc ... I don't have the space to do any real test cutting unfortunately and low ceiling. Sad Laughing Out Loud

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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 4:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
The Langue de Boeuf just arrived as well as two Javelins and the Iberian mace. ....

Congratulations, Jean! The long wait must make the receipt all the more satisfying. Don't forget - we need pictures. Big Grin

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2007 10:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well here is a partial review as I may follow it up if I think of other things to say about it. I am including some pics though.

I just used a regular scale to weight it so the real weight might be off by 1/2 a pound either way:

I get a value of 9.5 pounds

Total length is 86"
Length of head excluding languettes from point to end of socket 31"
Length total with languettes 43"
Blade width is 4" at it's maximum and is 1/4" to 3/16" thick on the bevel ridges and webs at top and bottom where the hollow grinding stops before getting to the ends of the sharp rectangular central section. These webs areas are a good idea structurally and avoid creating a week point near the socket and at the base of the top spike.
The top spike if a diamond section that is 1" wide and thick at the base and tapers rapidly in thickness were it joins the rectangular section, but with an overlap into the upper webbed section that curves and blends in with the spike on the sides of the spike. ( The pics should make this clearer than words ).

The way the spike is supported avoids a weak area that would have happened if there wasn't a well thought out transition from spike to rectangular section. ( A very sword sharp section that with a little work could be scary sharp ).

The languettes where they are forged to the socket are close to 3/16" thick on the ridge line and round and flatten a bit from there.

The butt counterweight is 5 1/4" long.
The P.O.B is between the third and fourth languette rivet and at 40" from the tip of the spike: So at a total length of 86" the Langue de Boeuf balances just forward of the center point.

Due to low ceiling. small rooms and NO backyard to speak of ( Postage stamp sized backyard. Laughing Out Loud ) I can only play with it in a slow motion and very controlled way so for handling I can only say that it balances well and is not too heavy.

The rectangular blade section seems to bend in a uniform way with the center of bending being just a bit closer to the spike. There is a bit of springiness to the blade about the same as one would expect from a sword with a strong midrib: I haven't tried to bend the blade too much since this sort of thing shouldn't be done too often or too a too extreme degree as it isn't good for the blade to make a habit of it, but a little flexing does show that all the flexing is not concentrated at the bottom of the spike.

Now looked at in distal profile one sees from the point a thick spike transitioning onto a wide but much thinner cutting blade so that at the point of the blade that would be used in a cut one has the equivalent of a 4" wide sword blade a 7/32" thick on the ridges of the hollow ground blade. The narrow edge bevel are also slightly hollow ground. The edges are sharp but could easily be made sharper.

The finish is similar to most of A & A polearms which is a bit rougher and shows some light grind lines i.e. not as fine as their sword finish but credible for a polearm. There are a few asymmetries in the junction of spike and rectangular section but these I think just make the Langue de boeuf look handmade and consistent with real period weapons of this type.

Although this one is still an upscale quality polearm and not a crude rustic peasant weapon.

I may scotchbright the surface a bit to blend in better some grind lines that are not running in the exact same direction and cause distracting reflections. I mention this just so not to give false expectations if someone orders a polearm from A & A, I personally am not bothered by this and I could also antique the surface and polish it back up a bit: This works really well in making slightly visible modern tool marks disappear. The light corrosion caused by the antiquing process is just enough to eat away the modern tool marks and at repolishing with the scotchbright will remove the aging and most if not all the tool marks. ( Oh, my lemon juice treatment + some gun blue can be just partially be buffed out and leave a more or less aged finish ).

In any case I haven't decided on doing this yet or not.

The concept drawing is somewhat different but I am happy and approve of the changes Craig made I gave the latitude to modify the original concept and he came up with some very good and logical changes: My version the rectangular section
and the spike section was more blade like and the central spine would have been much thicker inside the rectangular section, This would have looked nice but the way Craig made the blade section thin makes for a much better cutter as the thick spine would have interfered with a smooth cut. The much thicker spike becomes a much better thrusting weapon forged at the top of an efficient cutting blade.

In my version the hollow grind would be uninterrupted but might very well have made for a weaker junction at the top of the socket and the rectangular blade might have bent sideways in the middle of the hollow grinding where the web of metal would be thinnest. The way Craig stopped the hollow grind at top and bottom creates webs of thicker metal giving better support at the socket and at the spike transition.



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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Langue de Boef looks very cool, Jean, and it seems that Craig and company at A&A did a really fine job on this piece.

Quote:
Total length is 86"
Length of head excluding languettes from point to end of socket 31"
Length total with languettes 43"
....
The butt counterweight is 5 1/4" long.
The P.O.B is between the third and fourth languette rivet and at 40" from the tip of the spike: So at a total length of 86" the Langue de Boeuf balances just forward of the center point.

I expected the balance to be much more forward toward/into the head, so I was surprised to read this. (keep in mind that I have no polearms.) That butt counterweight must be heavier than it looks.
Quote:
Due to low ceiling. small rooms and NO backyard to speak of ( Postage stamp sized backyard. ) I can only play with it in a slow motion and very controlled way so for handling I can only say that it balances well and is not too heavy.

This must be difficult for you, since you can't put it through some real "paces". I think that you need to buy another house, with a good sized yard so you can exercise your armoury!

By the way, when you say "not too heavy", you should probably clarify whether you are speaking for yourself, or the rest of us mere mortals.

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
The Langue de Boef looks very cool, Jean, and it seems that Craig and company at A&A did a really fine job on this piece.

Quote:
Total length is 86"
Length of head excluding languettes from point to end of socket 31"
Length total with languettes 43"
....
The butt counterweight is 5 1/4" long.
The P.O.B is between the third and fourth languette rivet and at 40" from the tip of the spike: So at a total length of 86" the Langue de Boeuf balances just forward of the center point.

I expected the balance to be much more forward toward/into the head, so I was surprised to read this. (keep in mind that I have no polearms.) That butt counterweight must be heavier than it looks.
Quote:
Due to low ceiling. small rooms and NO backyard to speak of ( Postage stamp sized backyard. ) I can only play with it in a slow motion and very controlled way so for handling I can only say that it balances well and is not too heavy.

This must be difficult for you, since you can't put it through some real "paces". I think that you need to buy another house, with a good sized yard so you can exercise your armoury!

By the way, when you say "not too heavy", you should probably clarify whether you are speaking for yourself, or the rest of us mere mortals.


As to the balance I am surprised also but this is from the point of the spike to the P.O.B.: If I measure from the P.O.B. to the mid blade cutting section it's closer to 20" - 22". I'm guessing that the unmounted head's center of gravity must be close to the middle +/- a couple of inches.

The butt counterweight weight depends on how deeply does the aft go into it ? The solid part might be anything from 2" to 3" long.

Well, 9 to 10 pounds seems at the high end for a polearm but not worse than a M1 Garand and easier to use than a Garand with a bayonet due to small diameter or the aft and the comparative ease of moving the hands to different positions on the aft. ( So I don't think the weight is excessive. )

My Delltin twohander ( 2162 ) weighs in at the same 9.5 pounds using the same scale. ( I can hold this sword with one hand without too much trouble but controling it properly takes too hands. Wink ) I don't know if this gives you a comparizon point to relate to ? Wink Laughing Out Loud

Oh, the wood looks real good and I'm going to slowly build up a linseed oil hand rubbed finish on it and the Iberian mace.

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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So who was using this Langue de Boeuf? I did a search on Google and got "Langue de Boeuf Sauce" as my most common hit; a pictoral search yields mushrooms.

M.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
So who was using this Langue de Boeuf? I did a search on Google and got "Langue de Boeuf Sauce" as my most common hit; a pictoral search yields mushrooms.

M.


Well if you go back to the very first few pages of this topic you will see a few historical versions on which this one is based.
( I'm almost sure of the above but I haven't re-read the whole Topic thread form the beginning in some time and I also think that you might find there some answers or at least more questions. )

As with many polearms the names may vary regionally, by time period and different experts have different views about which name should apply to which type of polearm.

There are also Langue de Boeuf type polearms that are simply HUGE spear head of basically triangular shape.

In English these are often called Oxtongue spears: A Google search may give you a good oxtongue soup recipe. Wink Laughing Out Loud

I did base it on a few historical one that Craig found and illustrations in an Osprey book but I could just as well have designed a completely " fantasy " polearm: I'm not a historical accuracy obsessed type ( nothing wrong with that ) and if something is historically accurate it is a plus but I am more focused on weapons design for it's own sake.

As far as it goes I think it is very useful to know what is historical and what isn't, but this said I don't have to restrict myself to purely historical considerations i.e. I don't want to mistake something " fantasy " for " historical " through ignorance but I can decide to go " fantasy " or historically possible / plausible but not proven.

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Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Sun 14 Jan, 2007 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Allen Andrews




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2007 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You know Jean, if you swung it around enough, you would no longer have low ceilings or small rooms! Big Grin

Great looking piece by the way.

" I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood. "

Faramir son of Denethor

Words to live by. (Yes, I know he's not a real person)
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
... Well, 9 to 10 pounds seems at the high end for a polearm but not worse than a M1 Garand and easier to use than a Garand with a bayonet ....

I'll take issue with that point, since 8 rounds of 30-06 are pretty easy to use (though, I'm sure this is not what you had in mind. Laughing Out Loud)

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
... Well, 9 to 10 pounds seems at the high end for a polearm but not worse than a M1 Garand and easier to use than a Garand with a bayonet ....

I'll take issue with that point, since 8 rounds of 30-06 are pretty easy to use (though, I'm sure this is not what you had in mind. Laughing Out Loud)


Only after you run out of ammunition. Razz Laughing Out Loud

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 1:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Minor update: Just used a diamond hone to polish up the edges and I can easily cut paper with the edges of the sharp part of the Langue de boeuf.

I just hold the L de B close to the head and move it in a slow slicing motion and a piece of paper become two pieces of paper. Cool


Safety note:

I'm not hanging this one over my bed with string on two small nails anytime soon. Wink (Wouldn't anyway even if it was dull as a butter knife and it's always good to anticipate the worse when deciding on how to store or display anything sharp: Nothing that will fall off a display easily or easy to fall on if one should trip on a carpet or something ).

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Pamela Muir




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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 3:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Minor update: Just used a diamond hone to polish up the edges and I can easily cut paper with the edges of the sharp part of the Langue de boeuf.

I just hold the L de B close to the head and move it in a slow slicing motion and a piece of paper become two pieces of paper. Cool

Quite useful for clipping coupons or making paper snowflakes. Razz Laughing Out Loud

Pamela Muir

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Academy of Chivalric Martial Arts


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