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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 4:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pamela Muir wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Minor update: Just used a diamond hone to polish up the edges and I can easily cut paper with the edges of the sharp part of the Langue de boeuf.

I just hold the L de B close to the head and move it in a slow slicing motion and a piece of paper become two pieces of paper. Cool

Quite useful for clipping coupons or making paper snowflakes. Razz Laughing Out Loud


Cutting nose hairs is a bit tricky though. Razz Laughing Out Loud

Pamela:

Do you have the Spada II book and read the chapter on using the Partisan ? Getting your views on that article as well as any ideas about how a 10 pound polearm might be handled ?

The article is interesting but just a taste I think of the many possible techniques. I find the basic thing were the hand forward basically stays still while the rear hand near the butt rotates up and down or side to side or even in small circular arcs to do most of the defensive moves. There seems to be a great economy of motion with this style of use of a polearm. ( I say this style because I assume that there may be other styles out there ? )

One thing though is that even if I move my rear hand as quickly as possible the motion of the head of the polearm just doesn't seem very fast to me ? This might explain in part the need for very economical moves that work with a minimum of movement. A sword would seem much faster but the range advantage of a polearm seems to maybe compensate for this.

Thrusts on the other hand seem very fast and the use of the partisan is said in the article to be mostly thrusts, at least against another partisan used by someone who know what he is doing.

The use of a partisan or my L of B in wide sweeping cuts might be used against shorter weapons or in more of a battlefield situation where in the confusion of battle create opportunities to use wider swings without exposing oneself and leaving openings in ones defence.

Another observation based on the Spada II article is that if I move both hands instead of following the advice given in the article it seems to me that I can get more speed out of a chop ? ( I have been playing in slow motion due to lack of room as I've mentioned in previous posts ) There may be techniques which are exceptions to the general rule that the forward hand must be only used as a pivot point at least for defensive parries ?

One more thing I've noticed that if I use the side of my body at waist level as a rest and pivot point I can direct the blade with minimal effort from my arms and the body is uses as the main mover, a bit as if the polearm was a canon on a tank turret with the hands /arms handling elevation and depression and just a bit of rotation: Hard to explain clearly, and my observations and so-called technique could be historically all wrong. The point is that if I'm not completely wrong about the above it means that for heavy cutting power and speed could come from the core centre of gravity of the body rather than just coming from the arms? Also my L of B is a 10 pound polearm while the partisans in the article are said to weight closer to 6 pounds.

I also think that the partisan techniques would apply equally well to any simple spear.

Well, I would suggest that this Topic could continue with observation / guesses or knowledge about polearm use or could be spilt off into a new topic ?

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Hugo Voisine





Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jean,

Although partisan techniques as described in Spada II might be more historically accurate for a weapon such as this (honestly I don't know for sure), I think you should definitely take a look at "Le jeu de la hache" and Talhoffer manuals. To my own experience, this way of fighting with poleaxes and such is extremely effective, brutal and fluid, although somewhat more energy consuming.

The basic stance I use is (for a left-handed person fighting right-handed) : left foot forward facing your oponent, right foot not directly behind but a few inches to the right, at about 30-45 degrees, right hand at about 1.5 foot from the head of your weapon (depends on how the weapon is balanced), left hand distanced from about 2.5 feet from the right hand. The butt of the polearm is directed toward your opponent neck. From there, by making a pass you can deliver a crushing zornhau. It also allow you to parry effeciently with the tail.

edit : just noticed this :
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/event_ars2006d.jpg
Note the interval between the hands does not change much, although their position on the pole do. I prefer having a bit more space between my hands.

« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 9:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugo Voisine wrote:
Hi Jean,

Although partisan techniques as described in Spada II might be more historically accurate for a weapon such as this (honestly I don't know for sure), I think you should definitely take a look at "Le jeu de la hache" and Talhoffer manuals. To my own experience, this way of fighting with poleaxes and such is extremely effective, brutal and fluid, although somewhat more energy consuming.

The basic stance I use is (for a left-handed person fighting right-handed) : left foot forward facing your opponent, right foot not directly behind but a few inches to the right, at about 30-45 degrees, right hand at about 1.5 foot from the head of your weapon (depends on how the weapon is balanced), left hand distanced from about 2.5 feet from the right hand. The butt of the polearm is directed toward your opponent neck. From there, by making a pass you can deliver a crushing zornhau. It also allow you to parry effeciently with the tail.

edit : just noticed this :
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/event_ars2006d.jpg
Note the interval between the hands does not change much, although their position on the pole do. I prefer having a bit more space between my hands.


The use of the butt must have originated with the great Danish axe since the weight is so much on the axe head side that only the butt end is capable of the fast movements needed for defensive moves the head being fully committed for a strong attack difficult to stop and redirect defensively. The butt used defensively and for some light attack work and the axe head reserved for fully committed attacks, hopefully well timed attacks. Wink

A poleaxe or halberd might be a little less extreme as the balance point might be further from the head but the type of handling used with the Danish axe would still be valid.

At the other extreme a simple spear would find the use of the butt much less of an advantage ? Still, quarter staff techniques might overlap with spear techniques were all parts of the weapon would be used for attack and defence.
( I say this as speculation and as mental experiments rather than tested in action. )

The balance of my Langue de Boeuf is only a bit forward of the midpoint of the weapon and should be useable using many different techniques I assume. In slow motion play I can hold it with the forward hand just behind the point of balance and the other between two and three feet apart. I can also hold the L of B much further back and still control it: One hand on the butt or close to it and the forward hand a third of the way up the aft. Sliding the hands from near neutral balance to very forward balance.

Maybe I don't really know what was done in period but being left handed and somewhat ambidextrous using it left handed or right handed and switching from one to the other seems like the thing to do ? Not exactly sure about how this translates to the real period use though ? I think I might be able to attack effectively just by instinct but defence using the right parry or rather not knowing what and how to parry is more important in that this is what gets you killed by someone who does. Wink Laughing Out Loud

No formal training but I did get used to handling a BO staff a long time ago: At least it felt good rotating it around the body and switching lead hands at will as well as sliding holds from left dominant to right dominant right leg forward or left leg forward, centre holds or at the ends.

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Allen Andrews




Location: Maine USA
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 6:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of my christmas presents was a copy of Sydney Anglo's "The Martial Arts of Renaisance Europe" As I read it I am struck again and again by a lot of similarities of some techniques depicted in european treatises and those taught in modern schools of eastern martial arts. I often wonder if it is merely a matter of form following function, or if the great travelers of that era (both eastern and western) studied abroad and brought foreign knowledge back to their schools. (It was Jean's mention of the bo that made me comment on this)

I found the staff weapon section in Anglo's book to be of special interest, and was suprised to learn how much the butt end of the weapon was used. Makes me want to learn more.

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
One more thing I've noticed that if I use the side of my body at waist level as a rest and pivot point I can direct the blade with minimal effort from my arms and the body is uses as the main mover


When I started training with a bo, my master suggested using as heavy a staff as possible. I found one made of wenge wood, which is quite heavy. During extended sessions sparring, I would find myself doing the exact same thing.

I find your experience with your new polearm to be fascinating, please continue to describe the fun!

By the way I just love the mental image of you making paper snowflakes with it Big Grin

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Faramir son of Denethor

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Hugo Voisine





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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe I don't really know what was done in period but being left handed and somewhat ambidextrous using it left handed or right handed and switching from one to the other seems like the thing to do ? Not exactly sure about how this translates to the real period use though ? I think I might be able to attack effectively just by instinct but defence using the right parry or rather not knowing what and how to parry is more important in that this is what gets you killed by someone who does.


Changing leading hand is surely showy and cool ( Cool ) but leaves you quite defenseless during a precious second or two. Don't want to make it sounds like and absolute rule but I can't see much use to it in real combat situation. I may be greatly mistaken however, polearm not being my cup of tea that much... Wink

By changing leading hand I mean changing the hand wich is nearer to the head of the weapon. Changing leading foot (and by extension the hand that is nearer your opponent), I think is necessary in the earlier style of fighting. Hope what I'm saying isn't too much confusing. Razz

Quote:
At the other extreme a simple spear would find the use of the butt much less of an advantage ? Still, quarter staff techniques might overlap with spear techniques were all parts of the weapon would be used for attack and defence.
( I say this as speculation and as mental experiments rather than tested in action. )


Yes, parrying different parts of the weapon give different strategical advantages.

With the butt : allow fast cutting parries and easy control of your opponent weapon with minimal movement from your directing hand (the one in the back) and almost no movement from the pivot hand (especially if he's striking with the head of his weapon).

With the middle of the pole (en demi-hache) : allows you to parry easily a strike from above, and allows you to rotate around your opponent's weapon, but leaves your belly and legs more vulnerable.

With the head : allow fast parries / riposte with the head of the weapon (must be particularly effective in the case of your langue de boeuf).

« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugo Voisine wrote:
Changing leading hand is surely showy and cool ( Cool ) but leaves you quite defenseless during a precious second or two. Don't want to make it sounds like and absolute rule but I can't see much use to it in real combat situation. I may be greatly mistaken however, polearm not being my cup of tea that much... Wink

By changing leading hand I mean changing the hand wich is nearer to the head of the weapon. Changing leading foot (and by extension the hand that is nearer your opponent), I think is necessary in the earlier style of fighting. Hope what I'm saying isn't too much confusing. Razz

With the head : allow fast parries / riposte with the head of the weapon (must be particularly effective in the case of your langue de boeuf).


The changing of lead hand would / might not be in the middle of an exchange but rather when at a safe range and mostly I mean that one wouldn't feel at a disadvantage beginning a fight as a left hander or right hander i.e. being able to fight no matter which hand one finds oneself holding close to the head.

Lets say your are fighting in a narrow confined space and after taking care of an opponent in front of you you have to react quickly to a surprise attack coming from behind: Switching leads as you turn might be faster and easier than keeping the same hand as lead and turning the whole weapon around ? Just reaching for a case were not being rigidly left or right handed would be useful.

One thing I was also thinking with my Langue de Boeuf is that if someone got behind my point I could still make things interesting with the very sharp rectangular section in a slicing draw or push cut.

These books might answer some questions:
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VI...8&HS=1
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VI...9&HS=1

Probably my next purchase. Wink Big Grin

Oh, Hugo thanks for the help. Cool

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