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Use of thumb ring on Daggers
I'm wondering about the use of the one side ring on many lefthand daggers and how they were used or useful ?

If I'm not mistaken they are often called thumb rings: Is this because the rings main purpose is to protect the thumb if the blade is held with the edges parallel to the ground ( Side to side ) with the thumb held on the ring side of the guard.
The ring would then protect the top and sides of the thumb.

If held in the left hand with the blade edges vertical the " thumb ring " would act as a ring guard and blocking a blade from sliding the outside of the blade onto the left hand.

I haven't researched the use of the lefthand dagger in combination with the Rapier or sword and I haven't come across much mention of how it was used in casual reading. ( Actually the thought just occurred to me that I don't remember any topics about dagger use here , alone or in combination with other weapons. )
It's called a "side ring" or an anneau.

A side ring serves the purpose of creating an obstacle so that another blade won't travel up the blade and onto the hilt, hurting the hand.

A thumb-ring has the purpose of being there for your thumb to wrap around, creating leverage on the cut and helping create a more secure grasp of the hilt.

This is a thumb-ring, as shown on a schiavona:


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Schiavona and thumb-ring
Thanks Nathan: Side ring makes sense and thumb ring is something " other ", what may have cause my confusion is that a dagger may at times be used with the blade horizontal with the thumb being on the flat of the blade or ricasso: the side ring just looks as if it might also be used as I described. ( Secondary use, not the main reason it is there. )

Quite possible that a knowledgeable user of a lefthand dagger would never do the above.

Thanks for the explanation about what a thumb ring really is: As a left hander myself I can see how a rapier with a thumb ring would have to be made for the left hand if one wanted to use it.

I guess one could still use the right handed version rapier with the left hand but would loose any advantage that the thumb ring would bring.

In conversation with Craig about the Cavalier Rapier I think he said he might be able to make the thumb ring for lefthanded use. I think he meant just modifying the thumb ring and not a full mirror version sword for a lefthanded person: The full lefthanded option might be better. Must admit that at the time I had no clear idea about exactly what the thumb ring looked like and were it was on the Rapier. ( Just asking questions of Craig as I have not decided on a Rapier acquisition yet ! Oh, the town guard sword is also a possible acquisition eventually. )

My preference is for ambidextrous weapons in general as right hand use remains an option.
Styles of fence that utilize the thumb on the flat of the dagger blade would have the thumb placed on the opposite side of the blade than the side-ring. I've seen people holding these daggers with their thumb through the side-ring and I can only shake my head and wonder why they're doing that.
This may have been my first glimpse at a 'real' thumb ring (side rings as well, I suppose), I was very taken by it though I wasn't brave enought to try and build one into my own hilt: http://www.myArmoury.com/review_pmc_hh.html
Thanks again Nathan :D

And "why are they doing that " is exactly like why I would have done it: Didn't know any better ! :blush: :blush: :blush:

Well it all makes sense now. :D
Nathan Robinson wrote:
Styles of fence that utilize the thumb on the flat of the dagger blade would have the thumb placed on the opposite side of the blade than the side-ring. I've seen people holding these daggers with their thumb through the side-ring and I can only shake my head and wonder why they're doing that.


Yeah, I've even seen many people advocate this grip. Seems like a good way to break a thumb if you ask me, not even getting into the fact that I've never seen a single reference to people doing this in period.

But Jean, you do have the right idea for why it's there: To keep a parryied blade from sliding down an hitting the knuckles. Many later daggers became more elaborate and covered the entire back hand.
Re: Use of thumb ring on Daggers
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
I haven't researched the use of the lefthand dagger in combination with the Rapier or sword and I haven't come across much mention of how it was used in casual reading. ( Actually the thought just occurred to me that I don't remember any topics about dagger use here , alone or in combination with other weapons. )


Well, the basic gist is that the dagger is most often used as a means to parry where the sword isn't, and in a botched up situation can be used to attack from close range (although this isn't an ideal situation, particularly if your opponent is similarly armed). The sword is the primary method of defense, but the dagger can be used to augment the defense by closing off another line of attack, being able to parry when it would instead require a large motion from the sword, and also to prevent an opponent from moving his blade back into position after you have performed a feint and went around the opposing sword. There are even times where the rapier and dagger form an "X" cross to parry a cut to the head.

Check out this article:
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_arms_rapier.html

Scroll down to the section on using the off hand to parry. In that I give the example of using it to aid a feint, and this can directly be applied to the use of the dagger.
Saxon Dagger arrives WOO HOO !
Just received my A & A Saxon dagger " WOO HOO " : Now I can confirm that breaking your thumb would be the probable outcome of mistaking the side ring for some sort of guard for the thumb, and the ring would not protect the tip of your thumb from being cut off anyway. I can still see where thinking of these as thumb guard would happen without information to the contrary: It just LOOKS as this would be the rings' function.

Used properly the side ring also seems to give a large area of contact with the index finger side of the hand and adds to the possible power of a thrust when used in a hammer grip or the reverse ice pic grip i.e. Gives you support and confidence in using maximum force without fear of your hand slipping onto the blade and the increased contact area should make the thrust more comfortable.

Considering that the work involved making a dagger like this is very close to what it would be for a much bigger sword the price of these A & A daggers is a real bargain :surprised: :lol:

As a mini review I can say that I was surprised by how slim this blade is as the Picts on the A & A site does not give you much to compare it to. The blade 1 3/16" wide at the guard and tapers in a strait line to 1/2" wide at about 1" from the tip were it curves in an elliptical point with a sharp tip. The tip is not an easily damaged needle as it would be if the edges met in a longer but strait continuation of the edges. The Blade seems to be about 1/4" thick near the guard and distal tapers to about 1/8" near the tip.
The edges are sword like with almost imperceptible secondary bevels except at the very tip where the blade curves to a point were they gradually become wider.

The point of balance is just behind the guard where the index finger would be: Sharp enough to make nasty draw cuts but not balance to be able to chop at all. The elliptical tip should be able to make good tip cuts: This is primarily a thrusting weapon when used alone and a parrying dagger when used with a sword or rapier.

Oh, I choose to buy the "fancy " scabbard with metal fitting: They look good and protect the tip and throat of the scabbard.
At the back there is a rectangular belt ring that work well when just thrust through behind a belt at the small of the back: I might add a leather lace through this ring as a safety to avoid losing the scabbard.

The sword fittings are very clean, I assume, castings. HHHHHMMMMM ...... Rondel Dagger maybe soon. ;)

( Edited because I wrote 1 1/8" where I should have written 1/2" at 1" from the tip, sorry ! )


Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Wed 27 Jul, 2005 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Jean;

AAAHHH!!! Your killing me with all the new toys your getting! Langue de Boeuf, Saxon Dagger, now your talking Rondel and the Cavalier! EEEK! :eek:

Good choices, I might add! :D

Cheers,

Gordon
Gordon;

Well, some of these I'm ONLY talking about for NOW ! But they are on the short list ! Not everything is expensive: The Analace and Chopper from MRL are inexpensive and I hope good enough for the price.

And then I have to budget for more armour or shields from Mercenary's tailor, high boots from Revival Enterprises or books from Chivalry Bookshelf etc ......... :p :eek: :lol:

Well I do have to prioritize though which ones to get first : You have to be careful that an expensive item doesn't BURN your entire toy budget or that too many inexpensive purchases keep you from getting that special custom piece :( :lol:
A Casual aside
On the subject of thrusting the dagger thro the belt at the small of the back I just thought I'd mention Derrike's range of woodcuts covering the English army in Ireland between 1567 to 1571. They' re a fascinating group of images full of little details that can help put together the right bits. There's a few images showing some deteil on sword belts, hilts shown generally reflect rapier style guards, the style of clothing worn. The mail worn by Border Horse, and daggers.

Every single image that shows a dagger pretty much shows the same style of dagger, straight quillons, thumb ring, large-ish blade as against the size of body image, all seemingly worn thrust or attached to the sword belt across the small of the back and all worn with the hilt to the right side of the body.

I can draw my dagger with ease, with my right hand in that position. Or I can draw my sword with my right hand, I can not reach the dagger with my left hand at all! I'm guessing that no common soldier is or has been trained in the use of sword and dagger and that the dagger is more useful right hand drawn in close combat, such as Push of Pike.

The other option is, of course stylistic depiction.
Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Well I do have to prioritize though which ones to get first : You have to be careful that an expensive item doesn't BURN your entire toy budget or that too many inexpensive purchases keep you from getting that special custom piece :( :lol:


This is actually an agonizing, painful process, isn't it? Man, I hate that... I'm trying to maintain a decent balance of the two... For me, there are 3 categories - the major, custom or over $1500 pieces (armour, Svante...), the Albion/A&A catalog items, and then there are odds and ends (books, turnshoes, cotte).

Temptation is horrid - and I'll be hammered with it the instant the UPS guy shows up - with a bundle of about 8 Albion Next Gen and Museum Line pieces for my Round Table. There are like 5 pieces in that bundle that I know I want someday. I swear, I'll get that Svante soon... ;) Once the Svante comes, though, the only other massive piece I want is a Gothic harness... Outside of that, I'm guessing I'm pretty stable unless I have the opportunity to pick up a custom like a Vince Evans or Peter Johnsson. Gothic harmess is probably an '06 or '07 thing.
Re: A Casual aside
David Evans wrote:
On the subject of thrusting the dagger thro the belt at the small of the back I just thought I'd mention Derrike's range of woodcuts covering the English army in Ireland between 1567 to 1571. They' re a fascinating group of images full of little details that can help put together the right bits. There's a few images showing some deteil on sword belts, hilts shown generally reflect rapier style guards, the style of clothing worn. The mail worn by Border Horse, and daggers.

Every single image that shows a dagger pretty much shows the same style of dagger, straight quillons, thumb ring, large-ish blade as against the size of body image, all seemingly worn thrust or attached to the sword belt across the small of the back and all worn with the hilt to the right side of the body.

I can draw my dagger with ease, with my right hand in that position. Or I can draw my sword with my right hand, I can not reach the dagger with my left hand at all! I'm guessing that no common soldier is or has been trained in the use of sword and dagger and that the dagger is more useful right hand drawn in close combat, such as Push of Pike.

The other option is, of course stylistic depiction.


Excellent point, David. I want to add to this that it at least SEEMS as though the dagger carried in this position (across the small of the back, with the hilt to the right for a right-hander) is there for the "quick-draw", as it were, reserving the rapier for more, er, "formal" brawls.

Here's a link to the "Image of Ireland" woodcuts, BTW. They're an EXCELLENT source for material culture details of an English army of the later-half of the 16th Century. Everything of course has to be taken with a grain of salt, and in context (as noted above, it could be stylistic depiction) however, even at that it's a good "generalization" of the methods of wearing things at the time.

http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Galler...eland.html

Cheers,

Gordon
Pictures
Gordon
Thanks for that...Useful little link!

By the way...Does anyone know of a good source for a pattern for a rapier hanger?
David;

Glad to be of some help! I went "Halliluia!" when a friend clued me in to that site! So much great detail of English soldiers from the late-16th Century that it isn't funny. Now to find a site that does the same for the Funeral March of Sir Philip Sydney... :D

Here's a photo of a really nice, high-toned sword hanger. I note that the construction is such that the buckles slide downward onto the sword, and there are no tongues to them, thus the attachment points for the straps to the buckles must be from the lower end of each strap, and the buckle rides town towards itself, as it were. Richard Lanni, of Florida casts some magnificent buckles for such, and has a diagram of how HE does them. Looks right to me. I'll try to dig up his email address for you. He doesn't do on-line orders, but will send you a catalogue, then he can let you know what he has in stock via email, then you send him a check.

Anyway, again, glad you found that site helpful!

Cheers,

Gordon


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sword hanger.jpg

Thats pretty
Thanks for that. That is pretty....Think I can get the bits made. It's just what do they look like when put together! I'm also looking at dutch painting, such as ter Borch for one to see how sword belts are made. There are clues but it's the "How does that go?" that would help!
Re: Thats pretty
David Evans wrote:
Thanks for that. That is pretty....Think I can get the bits made. It's just what do they look like when put together! I'm also looking at dutch painting, such as ter Borch for one to see how sword belts are made. There are clues but it's the "How does that go?" that would help!


David;

Check out Richard Lanni's wares, he'll send you a catalogue if you email him for one. He makes the most wonderful, period buckles and sword-belt fittings you can imagine at a very reasonable price. He also has a full diagram of how the whole kit goes together, which is a handy thing indeed... Here's Richard's contact info:

bucklcastings@msn.com

POBox 4174
Deland FL 32724
USA

I saw the link for Fairfax's doing an English Brigade from the 30-Years War. Are you setting up to do that one?

http://www.fairfax.org.uk/MAIN/ARTICLES/RESEA...rigade.HTM

It looks VERY cool indeed!

Cheers,

Gordon
Yep....
Yep...That's my lot...We've done about 6 events in the Low Counties now. Two in the town of Geertruidenberg near Breda and the rest across Flander. We've had more events to other places and into Germany now. It's fun......and very different to reenacting in the UK!
David;

How cool! Must be really nifty "Campaigning in Flanders"! BTW, the kit that they show in the web page looks really top notch, good to see! And I know that this is rather highjacking poor Jean's thread here, but how is it transporting your matchlocks throughout the EU? Any difficulties, or is it just "Right, show your papers and off you go" kind of deal? Last I checked the Europeans don't have much problem with blackpowder arms, and still classify them differently from modern stuff, while Britain doesn't.

Thanks, and good luck with the campaign, it sounds like a LOT of fun!

Cheers,

Gordon
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